The same argument is made (and generally rejected) that the Western nations need to boost their birth rates so that it isn't left to those ignorant Muslims to populate the world. It is an old fear that has surfaced many times through history as demographics and ethnic geography shift.

The response is generally down one of three channels:

1) Promote genetic isolationism to avoid dilution of community and power (Jews marrying Jews as an internal isolationism; anti-miscegination laws as an external isolationism)

2) Ethnic cleansing. Physically prevent the growth of the "undesirable" population through murder, relocation, or forced sterilization.

3) Absorption. Force/convince the others to give up what makes them "other" and accept your view. This could be brutal as forced religious conversion or general educational/health/economic improvements that are strongly correlated with attitude and behavioral changes.

Maybe the "wrong" people will eventually take over the world but I'll be dead so I won't really care.

You guys will make great parents when it happens. And there will probably be a baby shower like no other. Really, how many baby showers have a Paramedic rumor mill there?

And for the *help* - I'm sure one of these days I'll have a kid or two. It's just not anything I'm thinking about now, or in the near future. Let's just hope I don't misplace it in Costco or anything. ;)

Oh I love kids. As long as I can give them back. BlueErica's sisters, my other friends baby. Spoil em rotten, give them back.

But I also know that I am way to selfish right now and not nearly responsible enough to have kids right now. I had cats that I had to give away (mainly because I was allergic) but I wasn't home enough to give them the attention they wanted/needd.

I don't have kids because it wasn't in the cards for us. We gave it the old college try but life turned out differently. Now that I'm highly unlikely to actually concieve at this point in my life, I don't think that the way things turned out is so bad. I don't mind children but I'm not necessarily fascinated by them for long periods of time. And, there are times that I actually dislike being around certain children. I don't have the patience and tolerance, so maybe it's a good thing we don't have any of our own.

I much prefer cats and dogs. And travel. And freedom. And no responsibility. ;)

More than anything, I'm relieved that it is OK to make whatever choice about having children that you want to make. That is progress in a good direction.

Hmm, I think perhaps you mistook my attempt to 'drown' children in '5 gallon buckets'...for 'playing'.

\~:gnome:~~/
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You are wise to not request my babysitting services...

I don't know where in the world you're getting that, Alex. But if it's anecdotal on your part ... best to consider the 3 realms of childless folk you admit to be at least partially limited to.



Anecdotally on my part, far too many prospective parents seem to want to wait for conditions in their married and financial lives to be "perfect" before having kids ... and too many of them also forget to compute the age they will be when they must deal with the VERY trying teenage years of their offspring whose creation they are putting off.

I didn't think there would be anything controversial about saying that most people see good things in having children before they actually have them.

So I'm not sure where in the world you are getting the opposite. I don't see many people dragged kicking and screaming at the horror of parenthood, driven only by their biological imperative and then to magically realize the beauty and benefits of procreating once they have the little bag of weeds.

Sorry, Alex ... but I simply disagree - based completely on my own observations (and I know MANY couples with children). It's not that people don't see any appeal beforehand, but rather they primarily foresee tons of downside, scary responsibility, loss of freedom, fear of failure, tons of work ... and they are right on every count. The brain seems to fear having children, but the heart (plus other DNA-influenced elements) have cravings that tend to overcome the mind's worries.


Since it can't be grokked until it's happening anyway, it's a leap of faith no matter what. And a leap I daresay would be taken far less often were it not for the unfathomable biological imperative to jump.






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Then our experiences are different. I too know a lot of people with children and most of them jumped into it happily, young, and with a feeling that they'd figure it out as they went along.

But I suspect that most of them are in the class of "idiots" that the movie fears will take over the world.

I think it is more of a social imperative rather than a biological one. The biological imperative is to have sex. Deciding to procreate is a different desire - at least it was to me.

Well, like with everything else in this world, its screwed up no matter what you think. People who want kids can't have them, for whatever reason. People who don't want kids have them and either give them up, murder them or neglect them. There are People who accidentally have them and abort them - thousands of Orphans - abandoned in the streets. Its all a garbled mess and a complete roll of the dice. It seems like it shouldn't be like this, but it is - sadly.

Me, I want kids, etc. etc. I've just never been afforded the opportunity to do so. I suffer from the "Ugly, not good enough, goal-less, loserdom" and it really, really sucks.

But on a different note, I have my neices and nephews who I can borrow and spoil and when the barf, crap thier pants and cry, I send them back to thier parents. :D