I'm kind of wondering what good metrics for success are in this realm of treatment.

There is the absolute of staying sober, but with relapse a common occurance do you measure a ratio of drunk versus sober days? Does a program fail if someone oes off the waon for a week and then returns? Is decreased usaage (implying more moderation) an acceptable measure?

Do people with sex addiction see abstinence as the only answer? How about eating disorders?

It seems to me one of the benefits of AA is it's attempt to keep things in the now - you may get drunk later, but for today, this hour, this minute, you commit to being sober.

I can imagine that it's a psychological advantage for AA members (or others in other types of therapy) to imagine that there is a force outside themselves that is assisting ... since they have themselves been such miserable failures at assisting themselves.


I think, for the most part, that's a fantasy. But so what? If it's a mental construct that works, I don't see the problem with it ... for those willing to indulge in it.




And for those who truly believe in an aiding spiritual force, and are not just adopting that belief on a temporary basis to help with their little problem ... well, they're completely right. There is.

There are numerous former drunks that post on this board. ALL of them got sober initially through AA. Is that quantifiable enough?

Bottom line is that, it works for some - those some even include the people who were court mandated to do it. Low and behold, some are not driving drunk any more.

Yes, your argument can be successful on paper, but in reality, whatever it takes to get a drunk sober is probably a good thing.

Yeah, like that'll happen.

So when you pray to the Matterhorn, what greater understanding of its will are you hoping for? How do you expect the Matterhorn to return your sanity? How is the Matterhorn going to remove my shortcomings?

Are you of the view that if a public school teacher said "I want every student in this room to pray to a god, any god you want because I think this will help you do better on tests; if you really find that objectionable I suppose you don't have to but I find it really helps" that this would be ok with you?

This power was certainly intended to be God when the whole movement started and redefining the word to meaningless is just the same stunt (as I mentioned above) the Creationists pulled on evolution.

It is like you saying that Jehovah's Witnesses do not have religious beliefs because they don't believe in the trinity. If that is what you believe then I can't argue you out of it and you can go on believing that there is no religion going on in Kingdom Halls. But I'm going to object strongly if told that I have to sit in there through a month's meetings if I want to avoid jail.

Of course, heheh, "some" are not driving any more, period.



In all honesty, I don't think "some" will be driving drunk when they are once again driving. And I honestly don't think AA had anything to do with that.


But I do credit AA with helping other folks I love here on LoT. That's enough for me to acknowledge a general goodness about it.

Oh, there's lots of "logic" that prevents people from getting sober through AA. I guess I don't really care about said "logic" because it is more important to be and stay sober than it is to try to understand what I don't understand - and that is why AA worked. That's far more important to me than logical answers.

I don't know Alex, I've encountered enough atheists in AA to know they figured it out for themselves how to work the program. In my recollections the one's that argued the most about the "God" factor usually seemed to use that as an excuse to keep drinking.

One person declared that "alcohol" itself was his higher power because obviously he had no power over it. Perhaps that doesn't make sense as a logical argument to the exact literal meaning text of the steps - but it worked for him.

Perhaps all that is important about the god thing is acknowledging that some things are unknowable, and that you are powerless over certain things? That seems to be the crux of the serenity prayer anyway.

No, honestly it isn't. I'm not at all saying that people who go to AA don't get sober, I'm saying there is little evidence that people who go to AA get sober at a significantly different success rate than people who don't go to AA.

I can provide millions of people who believe that horoscopes accurately predict their life, that doesn't make it so.

If it actually does anything. And if it does actually do anything it will be a quantifiable difference. If no matter what 5% each year will go sober, then the 5% who do it cold will think they are giants of willpower. The 5% who do AA will give AA credit. The 5% who try hypnosis will think it was the greatest thing ever. The 5% who find god will credit god.

The 95% who went to AA will just move on. The 95% who tried willpower will just move on. Then 5% of those 95% will find success in the next year with whatever they are doing and they will say "wow, this works so much better than that thing I was trying before."

Now go one step farther and create a society where everybody is pressured to believe that the only effective treatment is Treatment X so almost everybody who tries to kick the habit tries it with Treatment X and then 5% of the people get better. It will certainly look like Treatment X should get the credit for every sober person.

Show me a solid differential then I will grant that it is even worth considering forcing people to AA. There is no clear evidence of this so if you want to claim it, that's fine, but it has all the power of someone saying that sunspots are causing global warming because it seems to make sense to them.

But I still won't accept it because it is religion (even if loosely defined) and a fundamental bedrock of our nation is that nothing is more important than not forcing religion on someone. And if given a choice between pretending to religion and going to jail I'd like to think I'd stand by my principals and go to jail but I wouldn't. That doesn't make it ok, though.

I hope not, but alcoholism is a powerful disease. And, the cats broke my crystal ball. ;)