Buying used CDs is still the only legal way not to pay the artisits and record companies

True, but some Used CD dealers are paying artists out of their own goodness.

MTV Article

LaLa.com

But, most are not - and none of the re-sellers I frequent (or have ever frequented) have ever payed royalties on used music. However, in the long run, it usually does an artist good have their music listened to. Better than sitting on a shelf all lonely with no one listening to them.

True. But most of them are paying their BMI and ASCAP dues to play the music in the store, so at least the artists are getting something out of the stores.

Of course, if you have an eclectic collection BMI and ASCAP still leave a lot of artists uncompensated.

Hmmm someday soon I will start that intellectual property thread...

Then that is in the artists hands. Most musicians who publish their music know to become a member of one or the other if they expect to get paid. Even the most obscure artists have some sort of publishing contract when they get to the point of selling records.

Cool, then I shouldn't have any qualms about getting this stuff through less ethical means since not belonging to the biggest unions is tacit permission to steal their works.

As far as I see it, what I'd like to do is not illegal.

Well, what I'd LIKE to do is find a service that either has the business model of Napster, but with iPod files, which doesn't exist, or one like eMusic with a more complete selection. Also doesn't exist.

But barring that, all I'd like is to do is get music that I purchase legally into a form that is useable to me. Just as it's never been illegal to create copies of casettes or CDs for personal use, or to record a television show to watch later (see Sony Corp. v. Universal City Studios). Of course, the same process can be used towards illegal purposes (namely distributing music to other people, either for free or for charge), but that certainly is not my intention.

Thanks for the virtuosa tip, I'll check it out.

Ethics is relative. If you don't find it unethical, then your right, you shouldn't have any qualms. If you do find it unethical, and still do it, then there is something amiss. IMO.

Ethical and Illegal are also 2 different terms.
While making a copy for personal use is legal, making a copy and distributing it is illegal, as GD said. I do understand wanting to use Jhymn to listen to the music on the Tivo, and that still falls under "copy for personal use" IMO. You can get the same by burning an Audio CD, which you are allowed to do under the TOS.

Don't get me wrong, I have music that I didn't pay the artist for. I never said I was a saint. It just seemed to me that Disneyfan25863's statement was a little sugercoated.

He even said it was illegal, but it was "nice." Why not say it like it is:

We could have the same arguments (and have) about the semantics of "Illegal." Just as with speeding in your car or crossing on a red light, whether or not "everyone is doing it" doesn't make it less illegal. No, I don't agree with every law out there, but the laws are there for the "common good." Nor should we be blind sheep and run to "Carrousel" the minute the jewel starts to blink.

Don't think that I was getting all high and mighty either. That would make me a complete hypocrite. I just don't think that "everyone does it" is a good argument. (Not that anyone specifically stated that, but I know it is a justification that I fight with myself and since it popped into my head, felt it was worth bringing into the discussion.)
I have done all of the things discussed here, and sometimes still do, but I do feel someone had to play "Devil's Advocate" (or in this case, "Angel's Advocate" :p ) for the sake of discussion.
I really do like hearing how things like this affect others, or is it just me who has these internal dialogs about "Right and Wrong."

I can't wait for €'s "Intellectual Property" thread. :D

Hey, Uber.....do you still have that Dead Can Dance cd you borowwed to copy? ;)