A few years ago the government started doing acupuncture studies in which one group was given actual acupuncture and the other group were just poked with the blunt end of the needle. Neither group could see what was happening. The one I read about was done on severe arthritis and it was something like 90% effective. Of course, there haven't been enough studies for it to be considered scientifically reliable.

As I said before, Germany has been doing placebo controlled double blind studies on herbs for a long time. Their medicine is much more integrative.

I find it really funny that you think doctors would jump to do something unfamiliar to them just because it's been proven effective. Once the pharmaceutical companies start marketing the herbs, sending the docs on herb seminars and such, and handing out free herbs it might happen.

I could say the same about my microwave. I certainly can't see (with my eyes) how it, or any other energy works. :p ;)

Here's an acupuncture anecdote for you. The very first time I had acupuncture done (I've only had it a few times), I had broken my toe a few days before. My foot was very black and blue over a huge area. Obviously, they can't fix a broken toe, but they put a few needles in the bruised area for a while to get the circulation going. The next morning I woke up and there wasn't a trace of a bruise on my foot. Even I, was amazed.

I don't want Alex to bear the brunt of all the skeptical backlash, so I'll just say that I completely agree with his last post.
Perhaps we could start another thread to talk about various opinions on alternative medicines. As a skeptic, I do lots of reading on the subject. For the record, I have no vested interest in keeping alternative medicine out... I just want to know that it works. As far as acupuncture goes, I have heard plenty of stories that claim its efficacy (including my own family members), but I have yet to see a true double-blind study that satisfies my own skepticism. I want to believe, but you'll have to prove it to me...

Hmmm...I'll have to do some advanced googling. I'm a skeptic with nearly everything. I suppose I've just read too much about Western medicine. Too many doctors using drugs not proven effective for different conditions and age groups, using the wrong medicines for the wrong things, etc. It seems like the general theory is throw a bunch of pills at something and see what happens. Not too scientific, in my opinion.

I agree with you, tracilicious. In fact, it's the "not proven effective" part that sticks in my craw, whether it be western medicine or alternative medicine.

I have heard that 80% of traditional prescription medicines do not have the desired effect in 80% of the people. Either the side effects are worse than what is being solved, or they are not effective, or they lose potency for an individual over time.

I mentioned my venturing into alternative therapies for my disease. Well, I also tried many conventional therapies and medications that were completely ineffective as well. I won't go into everything I was given to take or the types of procedures I submitted to, but nothing had the desired effect for more than a couple of days.

Medicine is an inexact science. For that reason, I hesitate to say that alternative or conventional treatments are or are not effective. Trial and error is often necessary.

Doctors do not tend to be scientific in their approach to medicine. Most practicing doctors couldn't define statistical significance and are swamped everyday by anecdotal interactions. Researchers try to put into a scientific framework.

There are small studies that show efficacy for acupuncture, but they've all been generally too small for significant to be avialable. A study of 22 people just has too much room for statistical error.

There are two scientific organizations (the Cochrane Collaboration and Bandolier) that attempt to issue reviews concatenating evidence-based medical studies. There has not been a reputed effect of acupuncture that their reviews find overwhelmingly indicate positive effects though in many pain related areas there is enough positive research to indicate further research should be done.

For me, the damning element of acupuncture is that there are competing schools of theory completely at odds with each other. You may not be able to see a microwave but you can see indisputable secondary effects of their presence. You can create a testable framework for how microwaves work and make predictions that can be confirmed or disproved. What exists in the different schools of acupuncture is similar to if you want to two traditional physicians and said "I'm having a heart attack" and one immediately went to work on your knee while another immediately began massaging your buttocks. There is no theoretical framework in which acupuncture exists and relies on theories of a lifeforce that, by definition, can not be detected.

As you Google you will find that the National Institutes of Health have a pretty positive take on acupuncture (and althernative medicine in general) but then they also have a congressional mandate to promote alternative medicine so that isn't too surprising. They are on the far positive side of traditional scientific organizations and even they say there is as yet no generally accepted scientific evidence for acupuncture claims, just that they are confident that with sufficient study they will be found.

Again, I am not saying that acupuncture doesn't do anything. I'm saying that there is no strong evidence that it does anything, what it is doing if it does something, or how it might actually accomplish whatever it is claimed it can do. It is correct to say that there are many things in medicine where there is no framework for how it works, but then in those cases where it is used anyway there is almost always strong clinical evidence that it does work

At its root "throw a lot of pills at something and see what happens" is pretty much the very definition of science as long as you're making some attempt to objectively evaluate what does then happen.

Without that objective analysis you have the world of acupuncture where they just throw a bunch of needles at the person and see what happens.

Further, when it comes to medical treatment, there is a second question beyond "does it help" and that is "does it help better than this other thing that helps." For the sake of argument, let's say that acupuncture can put 8% of lung cancer into remission. That's great, definitely shows that acupuncture has therapeutic value. But is it a reasonable choice of treatment if its is shown that standing on your head and spinning in circles puts 72% of lung cancer into remission?

Almost all the areas where acupuncture shows some promise is in pain management. Claims of actual disease treatment (and there is a huge range of what acupuncture practitioners belief their treatment can heal) have shown almost no positive correlation.

I know, it is silly to argue this so strongly. People will believe what they want to believe. (Though it is still strange to me that Western medicine will - rightly - be condemned for when it fails to live up to an ideal of scientific objectivity but "altnerative medicine" will be embraced for never even trying.)

You should see me on the subject of homeopathy. I can't walk into my mothers bathroom without getting angry.

As much as it sucks, until the age of 18 parents, or guardians have control over your body. You have to have parental consent to get piercings and tattoos. In some places you have to have consent to certain medical care (abortions) and some places you don't.

At 18 you are considered old enough to vote, to make your own medical decisions, and enlist in the military (but not old enough to drink legally, that is another issue for another time).

So, I can see why this 16 y/o could not make the decision for himself what medical care he wants to receive; however, his parents were supporting him in his choice and that should be where it ends. If the parents wanted him to only have alternative medicine and he wanted convential medicine I could see an issue, and if he wanted alternative and his parents wanted conventional I could see an issue. I could even see a court battle in these cases.

But in the end, the age of adult is 18, and until then his parents should get the final say, not the courts, and not the social services fighting on behalf of the courts to invoke a choice that neither parent, nor child wanted.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, Alex. Upon googling I found out the same things you said about studies, so my memory must have been very rose colored on the arthritis one. My point isn't that acupuncture is a godsend and western medicine is bunk. My point is that I don't think the opposite is true either. I find it annoying that many view anyone that uses or practices alternative medicine as an idiot, or a quack. In reality, it is usually people that want to know all the options.

For the record, I've never heard of anyone treating an actual disease with acupuncture. Mostly it is balancing the body's systems/managing pain.

I do love homeopathy though, for the sole reason that it gets rid of my hayfever and I can't take any over the counter allergy medicine. Homeopathy gets rid of my allergies like no over the counter stuff did anyways. I have to take it all day long when things are blooming, but it helps. I have really severe hayfever. So, it's at least effective sometimes. ;)

On homeopathy, are you taking something that is truly homeopathic or something that misuses homeopathic to mean "herbal" or "holistic."

With true homeopathy you'd be taking nothing but plain water or (if in pill form) neutral filler.