The Girl Scouts are technically a Christian organization (though they let all faiths in) so I'm not surprised they went with Silent Night.

When I was a kid we sang all the Jesus songs in a Winter chorus thingy. My parents weren't happy about it but they didn't throw a fit. They explained to me our deal regarding Jesus and allowed me to continue singing, thank goodness. I didn't want to be the odd kid out, and I loved chorus.

The majority celebrates Christmas and there's no way anyone can deny that. If I decided to have a problem with it I'd be a very unhappy person. I do get frustrated by some aspects (mostly the Xmasization of Hanukkah) but I have learned to let it go. I do want to be included in parties and hand out my own gifts at the end of the year to remind others that I'm thinking of them. I understand fully that I'm manipulating labels of things in order to suit my own purposes, and that in the end I AM Xmas shopping. I live here, and I choose to participate in the fun aspects that have nothing to do with Jesus.

That said - I will never again participate in Secret Santas, no matter what. I always got supposedly secular things like angels and stars and green and red junk, the sad sack who picked me has a hell of a time shopping, and I sincerely don't want to buy actual Xmas junk for someone else, so it's in everyone's best interest if I just back the fvck out.

I say Merry Christmas to everyone that comes in to the library.

And that concludes my entire stance on being Jewish in December :D

Within the given limitations. Nothing is gained by setting unreasonable goals and making little kids feel like failures.

I coached my daughter's soccer team of five and six year-olds this fall, and we had one boy who just was not ready to listen or comfortable with competing physically with kids he did not know. His parents should have pulled the plug on that early on, but they paid their money and there wasn't much I could say or do. (Soccer does not have a right field.)

Not that it's relevant to this topic, but I did have one dad pull his kid on advice of counsel because his ex and his girlfriend would curse each other out and threaten to kick each other's ass while the kid was on the field.

I don't think the Girl Scouts at the core are as Christian, hard-assed and God-centered as the Boy Scouts are. From what I know about the Boy Scouts, there's also a hard-assed Jew scout program. Indeed, my brief tenure in Cub Scouts was through my temple.

God in the Girl Scout promise has an asterisk. One of my friends spent a summer during college doing odd jobs at a Girl Scout camp. I don't know if he thought he'd be starring in his own porn flick, but he came back reporting that the counselors were mostly man-hating lesbians.

But it doesn't matter what the Girl Scouts believe or believed at their founding. If these women led the girls' knitting club and took them caroling, they would have included Silent Night (and Holly Jolly Christmas). It is just, as you say, an oblivious majority thing.

Interesting - as a cub scout I was in a Jewish troop. We met weekly at Temple Beth Shalom on Tustin Avenue. With the friends I made there I learned about Passover, Hanukkah, and Purim, honoring and celebrating with them. I thought it was cool. Certainly much more fun than the Sunday School my sister dropped me off at - though I did meet Lizzibith's bother there for the very first time. He was similarly dumped there and we bonded poking holes in the coloring Jesus - talk about hypersensitive. At least my sister never did anything like that again.

*Sukkot are huts built on a holiday also called Sukkot that represent the harvest in Israel. Every family is encouraged to build one and eat all their meals in it for a week. My family does this - we invite friends over, it's a good time.

It's getting a little tired, no?

And no to public expenditures for religious promotion. Yes to both sides of the issue shutting the hell up and just fading away.

I agree, but I'm not sure that that is what Moonliner was saying. I'm anti good jobbing, as well, but because it is just another way thing that grown ups to do get kids to do what they want. I'd much rather a have a preschool that teaches kids, and helps them to find their internal motivation, rather than turning them into praise junkies whose sense of self hangs on stickers and verbal doggie biscuits. Neither punishment nor rewarding is appropriate in a such a setting. It's funny that so many don't realize that teaching can happen absent of those two control techniques.

I'm amused that in threads like these, where so many are so quick to bash parents that annoy them, I find myself disagreeing with both the poster and the person they disagree with. It doesn't need to be either give in to kids and spoil them or teach them the hard ways of the cruel world. There is a whole other train of thought that can be followed should one simply jump on.

Be careful what you say. Mrs. Grossman's Sticker Factory is one of Petaluma's leading industries now that the Jewish chicken ranchers have died out.

I am curious what kind of preschool Moonliner is hooked up with and when he has these conversations. I've never had more than a "How's it going" with other parents at pick up/drop off. I drop my kid off, he goes to the mat to listen to a story and he comes back with an arm full of paintings, news of what Billy Bird had to say today and who he pushed or yelled at because they pushed him.

I once asked why I didn't get a cash reward from my mom for good grades (which I didn't get often since then, like now, I think homework is generally a stupid waste of time designed to make teachers feel like their accomplishing sometihng) like many of my friends did. Her answer was "why would I pay you for what you're supposed to do anyway? Your reward for good grades is not being stupid."

What Moonliner is saying is that he does not believe in puffing kids up. If they play well then they get lots of positive feedback. If they screw up they get told, hey! you screwed up.

Please note that "play well" is not synonymous with "win" in this context. They can get crushed on the field and still have played their best, alternatively in some cases they can slack off, play poorly and still win. I praise or criticize performance and attitude not the score.