OT- Alex this post is a perfect example of how first you make me shake my head, then you make me laugh out loud! Visible mojo for you my friend.

Anyway, my aunt was/is Canadian and I know she had to wait many months for surgery to remove cancer and the chemo that followed. It was also more than once. They finally moved to the US for better health care and schools.

If you ask me Australia's health care system seemed just as bad. They appeared to be 20 years behind in medical technology. My mom had some horror stories from the 12 years she lived there.

I don't know what the answer is but we need to figure something out. Between the cost of drugs, Dr bills, let alone hospital costs it is outrageous and can sink a family very quickly.

I went through my deleted email.. it appears the information about the sneaks came from Michael Moore's blog. Not that its important now, but I wanted to throw it out there.

None the less, still offended the union felt the need to send it to me

Prick, jerk - I find the terms go hand in hand.

Sorry my I assumed most here had a basic understanding of world politics and high school history.

Across Europe VAT tax, (sales tax) is anywhere from 18 to 22%. The European Union has set rates for VAT while some Scandanavian and other countries charge more.

The top tax rates for Spain is 45%, for France is it 48% and Germany 45%. This generally starts at top incomes anywhere from $37,000 to $50,000 per year. (Do Google search, there are many entries for this)

Gas Prices

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lis...bal_gasprices/

Tax rates for income in Canada:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individ...axrates-e.html

Now add in the GST and the tax most provinces charge and now you are at 11 to 15% sales tax.

I also have Canadian relatives, one that works in healthcare.

It is fairly common knowledge the U.S. has some of the lowest tax rates in the world. Government programs have to be paid somehow, and generally that is through taxes. Since we already have a large number of government programs operating in the red, to add socialized medicine would require adding to the tax base to generate the revenues to pay for this.

See economics 101.

As for the health statistics, look at the rates of heart disease, cancer, hypertension, etc. The U.S. has some of the highest rates of these diseases of any industralized nation.

Since this disease can be linked to lifestyle, mainly fatty foods, trans fats, (which everyone is trying to eliminate) I would be safe to say our lifestyle contributes to our poor health. Our emergency rooms are often filled, (and not just with illegals) but with others who only see their doctor when there is a problem, not as a preventive measure. Want stats, ask a group of ten that you know when was the last time they went for a regular checkup and how many do it on an annual basis, especially if they have risk factors such as family history. I would assume the number will be fairly low.

As for the opinion being worthless, that could be said just about anything posted here. I never quoted it as fact, but as opinion used to stimulate discussion. For further corroborating evidence, you are welcome to do a Google search. I don't post often, but generally when I do, it is because I have enough knowledge to state an informed opinion. Since I use multiple sources, from newspapers, the Internet, books, reports, news and other sources I did not know I needed to post all that info also. Being new to the way Internet forums work, I will make sure to do a more thorough job next time.:D

Table 1. The role of private health insurance in western European health systems

Role Coverage Examples
Substitutive for people excluded from or allowed to opt out of statutory health insurance excluded: families with annual incomes over €30 700 in the Netherlands allowed to opt out: families with annual earnings over €45 900 in Germany

Complementary services excluded or only partially covered by the state such as dental care or user charges excluded services: France, Ireland, the Netherlands, Spain, the United Kingdom cost sharing: Belgium, Denmark, France, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Portugal, Sweden

Supplementary increased choice of provider and faster access all countries; the main role of private health insurance in Finland, Greece, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom


http://www.euro.who.int/HEN/Synthese...ing/20040630_3

There are some who would argue that our standard of care is the culprit, Mrs. Nesbitt, not our standard of living. I know a lot of people who don't go to the doctor for well-checks because they cannot afford it. I know a lot of people who live very healthy lifestyles, and yet they still get sick. My best friend died at 37 of lung cancer, and she did not smoke. She also did not have insurance, so she waited until she had not choice before she went to the doctor. She couldn't even afford the visit where she was told she would probably die.

I think I will wait to post anymore until I've actually seen the movie.

While affordability is certainly a problem for many, I have concerns over a government-run healthcare system, especially in light of the direction that the political pendulum is swinging. I certainly wouldn't want the right, particularly the religious right, controlling my health decisions, on top of the other potential costs that are absorbed by us as a whole.

I'm uneasy about so much these days. I'd feel better (though still probably not 100%, because that's just who I am) about a socialistic turn in healthcare if we had a more open-minded government, in terms of scientific research. Unfortunately, this is not the case at the moment, so I remain uneasy about any significant change in health care. As it stands, voters on the religious right are too busy arguing about whether Mitt Romney, a Mormon, is of Satan... because... you know... Mormons don't believe in Christ or anything - how can I rely on them to know what's right for me or my body, if so many of their proponents don't know the difference between their various cults. (For those not in the know... Mormons really aren't all *that* different from regular old Christians) Thus, at this time, I don't want the government involved with my healthcare decisions until I can feel more secure in what choices I have available.

I agree our healthcare system is not perfect and changes need to be made. There are always exceptions to the rule and while living a healthy lifestyle does not mean you won't contract a disease, it is always better to try and prevent it.

As with all of Moore's movies, while classified as a documentary, he does find examples to fit his theme for the movie. It is not an objective piece. None of his movies have been. It if helps move this country along in changing its health policies that is great, but I think using the rest of the world is an an example and saying they have it right when they have many issues also is just onesided.

No one has the perfect system and I do not believe socialized medicine, with the history our government has in running programs, would solve the problems.

As for costs, a general visit once a year to a doctor for a physical probably would be about $150.00. $3.00 a week. One less latte, lower your cell phone bill, cut back on the Internet, there are always ways to save money. Often we take for granted things that are luxuries and call them necessities and then say we cannot afford the basics.

Mrs. Nesbitt - Thank you.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Addendum: Yes, I will watch the movie, and evaluate my opinions, while keeping certain propagandistic tendencies in mind.

It is rather nasty though when routine procedures cost obscene amounts. I have a Blue Cross PPO (cost: $3000/yr). I have a $500 deductible on health visits and $500 deductible on named prescriptions.

In any case, I'm *still* paying off the "routine" colonoscopy I got last year. I had to get a blood test first due to the anesthesia that they were giving me.

So, AFTER insurance (these are all approximations):

Gastro Doctor (1 visit + procedure): $300

Regular Doctor (Exam + Blood Test + EKG heart check): $800 (expensive because he got my deductible $$)

Hospital for colonoscopy: $250

Biopsy: $50

Other lab work: $50

I can't remember if there was a separate bill for the anesthesiologist.

So it was around a $1450+ bill, out of pocket, AFTER INSURANCE for a "routine" test (and from what I've been told, that's on the "incredibly good" plan that I have!).