Lounge of Tomorrow - The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux)

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- - The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux) (http://74.208.121.111/LoT/showthread.php?t=3249)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex (Post 318696)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Call #2
You are a bastard and a baby killer, you will rue the day you did this Mr. Stupak. You are a disgusting man and I hope you're haunted the rest of yor living days. Because, you won't be a congressman much longer so you are a dirtbag and the country loathes you and god - bastard that you are - we think you're a devil and you will go the grave with this on your conscience. Was it worth it worth your soul?

"Baby killer" is inappropriate but I hear worse than this call from people on either said of issues all the time. And I fail to see a threat.

Bolded part could be taken as a threat. The rest are just rude, vile and very immature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex (Post 318717)

I can see how you might be insulted by what I said, but I fail to see anything ad hominem in there.

That's not what I said at all. In fact, I'd say I quite explicitly agreed with you that you had said no such thing. I'll repeat it and make it orange and bold and bigger so it stands out more.

I'd explain my point again but in rereading what I wrote it would appear to be as clear as I can make it so I'll just leave it be.

Ah hell, no I'll give it a shot. You have not said that violence is unique to the right and does not happen on the left. You said that violence from the right is peculiarly unique in that it scares you but violence on the left (at least, specifically, anti-war violence) does not. And that, to me, isn't much different in how it reduces the value of the condemnation than saying "violence form the right is bad but remember than there's been violence from the left too."

Here is exactly what I said in the post you referenced:

Quote:

I never condoned violence conected to anti-war demonstrations, but it never frightened me. The violent actions and rhetoric coming from the right do frighten me.

How on Earth do you equate that with "violence form the right is bad but remember than there's been violence from the left too."? Those who have made that type of statement have used it to try and excuse or lessen right wing violence. Statements like "Well... your side has done it to!"

My point, in the referenced post and elsewhere, is that right wing violence is on the rise; not an attempt to try and dismiss left wing violence.

I'm so sick of this crap. From both parties. Let's be honest, both parties are fvcked up and failing to really represent the desires of their members. And none of this is going to change until there's a major paradigm shift wherein either there's a realignment of the existing parties (for example Republicans go more Libertarian and leave the religious right to a new fringe party, and Democrats do something similar), or we have another major shift in the power of parties and newer parties rise to the top. But while the GOP has a viable alternative (Libertarian), I don't think there's a viable Democrat alternative (no, Green party is not viable, it's too fringe to mainstream), and I don't think a major paradigm shift can happen unless it happens to both.

I would love to see the Libertarian party become a viable alternative, but it honestly is not. The candidates offered by the Libertarians are typically a joke, and the current supporters of the Libertarian party are for the most part WAY out there, with philosophies of the local sherriff being the only persn with authority over them.

LIbertarian philosophy is much closer to me than the Republicans are at present. But they are far from a ready for prime time alternative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWBear (Post 318725)

Here is exactly what I said in the post you referenced:

How on Earth do you equate that with "violence form the right is bad but remember than there's been violence from the left too."? Those who have made that type of statement have used it to try and excuse or lessen right wing violence. Statements like "Well... your side has done it to!"

He's not saying they mean the same thing, he's saying they are equally undercutting.

Someone on the right might say, "violence from the right is bad but remember there's been violence from the left too" in an effort to downplay the violence from the right. Someone on the left might say, "There's been violence from the left, but the violence from the right is scarier" in an effort to downplay the violence from the left.

But I wasn't attempting to downplay violence from the left. All I said was that I find the current level of violence from the right more of a concern.

JW, maybe you are too close to it to be getting it as clearly as I do, and apparently as GD does (and hopefully others). This is not all about you, but Alex is - I believe - using a sample of your posting and a sample of another's (scaeagles, I think) to point out how such statements are used to combat the other side's arguments - but are simply undercutting their own - due to their hypocritical and rather lame attempts at deflection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWBear (Post 318742)

But I wasn't attempting to downplay violence from the left. All I said was that I find the current level of violence from the right more of a concern.

So you're not downplaying it, you're just trying to say it's less of an issue. Got it.

My point, rather than to downplay any of it, was that these things really aren't anything new. I will admit that after trying to make that point I was irritated by the implication that this comes only from the right, and therefore went about pointing out other violence from other sources.

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Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight (Post 318746)

So you're not downplaying it, you're just trying to say it's less of an issue. Got it.

At this point and time, yes. All the examples of left wing violence that have been cited here were in the past. The right wing violence we are discussing is happening now; and it is increasing. So, to me at least, it is more of a concern.