You know what? I really do like you people, disagreements and all. I'm a' learnin'!

word

Couldn't this be the way that Iraqi's view our actions in their country?

We knew what was best for them, plunged their entire country into chaos while trying to acheive our goals, and now we are surprised that they are fighting back.

Exactly. If we insist on fighting, we're going to get a fight. Things will continue esclating and we have a certain amount of control over that.

wow-

you actually think you can compare the two?

You think we are there telling them to convert or die?

I'm sorry, but I am just agog at such "logic"- how in the world can you see the two as the same in any way?

Not only that- but to acheive such a view you have to ignore the fact that alot of the insugency in Iraq is being fed in from other countries, it is not the Iraqis rising up en masse against us. It is also in-fighting that was there long before we did anything-

I have no doubt that some do. I would suspect the foreign nationals that have come to Iraq to fight against the US might think the same thing. I also believe that huge numbers of Iraqis are grateful we are there. I also beliee that Iraqis want the foreign nationals out of their country more than they want the US out.

To respond to NA, last time I checked there was massive escalation before we did anything in Iraq, with he exception of expelling them from Kuwait, of course. Do I really need to list all of the attacks against American targets that took place prior to the invasion?

It will escalate on their side no matter what our side does. So the choices are to fight back, give in tto their demands, or accept their continuing escalation without reprisal.

Here's one question: if all of the 9/11 bombers were from Saudi Arabia and all of the conspirators arrested today are from Pakistan, why do we wage war in Afghanistan and Iraq?

(and for the record, I get the Afghanistan part, but I figure it'd make a better discussion)

And to acheieve THAT view, you have to ignore the fact that while that was the line we were being fed at the beginning of the insurgency, the leaders on the ground in Iraq have since said, several times, that the level of foreign fighters was highly over stated and that most of the insurgency is indeed being fueled from within.

I think that's where I find the most disconnect between people of "whatever camp you want to call it". I can't buy into the whole "they started it" thing, because - it doesn't matter. What matter is how we respond. It's like one very serious playground fight between a couple of bully's, only there is not principal in this situation. I have a really hard time defending what actions we have taken. Maybe I'm bing too optomistic and simplistic to think that it is possible to "take the high road" but, we're getting targeted because we got involved. It has escalated to the point where we are the primary enemy and target. Have we really done anyone any good here? We certainly have no done much good for ourselves.

I'm not sure that the massive demonstration that occurred last weekend with over 100,000 Iraqis chanting "death to america" would support this. I never hear the Iraqis state "we want the foreign nationals out", rather I hear them say "we want the americans out". You are free to believe what you want but I have seen little evidence to back that assertion up. Iraq is becoming a theocracy and the opportunity for any real democracy is long gone. They understand this. We, however, haven't quite caught up.