I can see both sides here, but as a parent, I would never ever say what he has said, even if I believed it. Never. It's a public condemnation of your own child, and to do that, yet say you love them.......Doesn't sound like love to me. I'm not in their place, so I can't say what they really feel, but I just know I will always love my daughter, no matter what, and I would never say or do what he has. Perhaps he is able to reconcile his feelings with the "Love the sinner, hate the sin", stuff, but personally I think that whole mode of thinking is a crock. Kind of along the lines of "I'm not perfect- just forgiven", which many Christians take as a license to do rotten things to others, so long as they say "WHoops- sorry, God!" in their prayers at night.

Judge me based on your morals and beliefs and I'll just shrug. Try to legislate my behavior based on your morals and beliefs and you'll have a fight on your hands. Understand the difference?

Well, I have a little experience in this catagory and in this question in particular.

The odds of becoming an addict are stronger if it is in your genes, according to the many counselors we've 'chatted' with. In this family, in particular, the Indian issue comes into play but we won't go there as I don't know enough to substantiate it.

Another issue that we dealt with was depression and that perhaps in the past the 'alcoholics' were actually depressed people who self medicated.

I think, from what I have experienced in my own life, showing the kids that you don't drink or that you drink in moderation and keep your standards up in as many areas as possible {honesty,working, etc.} when/if they do start to drink and maybe start to become addicted, they are less likely to just say 'There is nothing wrong with this'. I don't know that having parents drink around you increases your chances but it lowers your resistance and sometimes your ability to see right from wrong. And your ability to pull yourself out of the addiction if the people around you aren't trying or don't see a reason to try.

Keyes has been around a lot longer than his 19 year old daughter has been a lesbian (assuming this wasn't an issue until maybe 6 years ago? Don't know when it was "discovered"). He has been saying the same thing for a long time. So it's OK to say something is wrong until someone you know and love - like your child - participates in things that you have long professed are wrong? That would be the height of hypocrisy - "It was wrong until the issue came into my family, but now it isn't."

Actually, I think it takes strength of character on the part of Keyes to maintain his stance in with the incredible public scrutiny.

I was thinking this would be great for a sig line...
:)

I'm sorry- but you also can't make the judgement that "hating" the "sin" (as defined by Biblical terms as I am sure Keyes uses) means hating the person.

Leo had a great point- most people here can seperate between his conservative politics, which many of you consider potentially damaging, and Leo himself, whom I know you like and respect- is it so hard for you to see that we on the conservative side see it the same way?

I am as tired of the unfair generalization of conservatives or Christians as being hate mongers, as I am sure you are of being labeled unnatural or perverse.

Sorry babe, you don't understand. My father sees the world in black and white. He spits out the word "liberal" only as an insult, even though GD has always used the word to describe himself (and he really does like GD). He talks freely of how it was homosexuality that brought down Greece and Rome and that it will bring down America. His views on Arabs are so racist I'm totally embarrassed to even recount them. Anyone, and I mean anyone, that disagrees with his world view is to be yelled at and told that they are for death and destruction. He's condescending and judgemental and cruel in arguments. He's said all kinds of horrible things about my views, asserting that I'm anti-American, that it's people like me that are undermining freedom, that I have no morals....

The fact that he thinks I'm completely fooled by the liberal media and swayed by a bad crowd hurts a lot. Especially since I've always shown myself to be pretty smart. In essence, he doesn't approve of my life, or at least, the underpinnings of my life. It hurts.

But we've worked around it.

Believe me, he's done his worst. And yet, he loves me, that much is abundantly clear. We don't talk politics often, really. I do love him and love being with him, as long as the conversation stays away from certain topics. He can be so much fun. We both know that there are ways for us to get along and that it's definitely worth it.

I hate his sins. But I love him. I know he'll never change, he'll breed hate and fear wherever he goes...but I love him anyway.

I don't think legislating morals was even part of this discussion-

I understand perfectly- as long as you understand that I am equally sick of people trying to force acceptance on me and mine in the name of their brand of tolerance.

Well, for many people it becomes a moment of, "Oh wait, you mean that these aren't evil people and the downfall of society?"

I hear ya. Both my parents are like that.

But like you said, you can turn it off the political talk when you two are together. But when someone doesn't like who you are, you can't just turn that off and it's very hard not to talk about it. I mean, if I tried, I'd have nothing to talk about without mentioning something Ralphie and I did together.
I'm not sure if I'm being clear.
Let's say your dad wanted you to be a boy. Black and white again. Resents you every time he sees you cause you're not a boy. How do you make that work? I see being me as being the same thing.