Yeah, I know the extension isn't a bastion of scholarship. Just explaining how I knew she taught dolphin talking.

I should point out that I really am not thinking of cancer and serious diseases when I talk about alternative therapies. I'm sure loads of people get alternative treatment for these things, and as I said before I've known four people cured of cancer by them, but for me, and most people I know it's for minor to moderate things, or simply keeping the body in balance.

That being said, if people want to research all their options and in the end decide on one that isn't scientifically proven, I think they have every right to do so. Maybe they'll die, maybe they won't. It's as good a guarantee you'll get with anything.

I really don't see how acupuncture is faith based. Or perhaps you are using the term differently than I do. I think miraculous healing and such when I hear that phrase. I've seen it work, studies are being done that at the very least prove it's possibly scientific. For me (and no I don't have a study to back this up), the bruises in my foot disappeared, therefore there must be some basis in logic and science for it. I didn't will them away.

I never said I believe in forms of energy that can't be detected. I think it's possible though. On discovery channel last year I watched a crop circle thing. It was about microwave like energy found near crop circles. Now, I don't believe in aliens, and it's too complex for a conspiracy, so an otherwise unknown natural energy source seems likely to me. If you were talking about chi, it's not really a believe not believe thing. It's the term in Chinese medicine used to describe the life force of all things. I believe it runs along meridians simply because a guy put needles in my foot at the right points and got rid of severe bruising in twelve hours. A double blind study couldn't have convinced more than that did.


Agreed.

Thank you so much for the education. I had no idea how a double blind study really worked. That would have been so helpful to know when I was reading all those medical journals/studies when I did my vaccine research. Me SO stupid!!!

I'm going to stipulate that some of it is. There is research that gives a drug to patients and then asks them how they felt, what side effects they experienced, whatever. It's just a really large group of anecdotes taken at the same time and compared. Then the results can be twisted whatever way they want them to be depending on who's funding the study. Of course, most research isn't anecdotal. And mainly, I was just being a pain in the ass. I put little stock in many studies though, for the above reason.

All very frustrating. It seems impossible to be an informed consumer/patient with all that going on.

Not at all what I said. I just think a lot of things have yet to be proved, but someday will be as our knowledge and technology increases.

No, I was simply comparing the two. I think it's highly possible that in the future there will be things that we believe to be correct that will be laughable to our descendents. There's so much more to learn, is what I'm saying.

Effective in some ways. Emergency medicine, absolutely. Definitely surgery. I'm sure there are others. I don't know about anything else. I would say that in general we are less healthy, have higher rates of disease, cancer, obesity, etc. I'm not crediting old medicine for that or faulting western medicine, but it seems to be the case.

I should add that I am grateful for the medical advances we've gained. Should I ever come down with something really serious, there will definitely be a western doctor on my care team. That may even be my main form of treatment. I really couldn't say.

What quality of life is it that it's provided? Most problems have been solved by better hygeine, good nutrition, better economy and the like. I don't dispute that the quality of life is better, but I don't give western medicine all the credit (some though).

Regardless, I'm not saying, and never have said, that one must choose alternative over western. But the automatic discounting of alternative medicine that goes on is annoying.

There is music and movement therapy. ;)

Also, I agree with Prudence. She just says things better than I can.

Alex, about the homeopathy thing, every mom I know loves Hyland's Teething Tabs. Do those fall under the category of a molecule in a swimming pool, or the mislabeled category. If those are true homeopathy, then sign me up. They take a cranky baby with swollen gums to a happy mouthed baby in minutes.

Lactose (and other sugars) have been shown to have mild analgesic (pain relieving) effect on infants.

Is this the point where I discuss using my bowel movements to predict my future? Or was that recall my past? I get so confused.

Ooooh! Corn!

That is what I mean by faith based. Despite a lack of evidence now, you believe it to be true and that evidence will come along somewhere down the road. You have faith that the things you believe are true and while eventual supporting evidence would be nice, it isn't necessary for your current belief. This is true of Christian Scientist and Filipino faith-surgeons as well.

Sorry for the unnecessarily lecture on double blinding but you're the one who said that science is mostly anecdotal, which it is not; it begins with anecdotes but properly treated the data becomes something greater than the individual points. I didn't realize you were just trying to be a pain in the ass, I'll admit to being gullible in assuming the conversation to be earnest. You also said you're skeptical of most things but I have seen any indication of that either.

I'm curious though, if you have four friends whose cancer has been cured by herbalists, why you wouldn't use it yourself? That's seems like a lot more evidence than you had for acupuncture (which was established by the diminishment of a toe bruise).

I'm not sure why you think crop circles are too complex for a conspiracy. I've personally been involved in the creation of two of them. They really aren't that hard to make. And are you aware that the most prominent theory (which, obviously, I think is wacko) for the microwave radiation (which, strangely, can only be detected by special machines in the hands of wackos) is that it is from a secret U.S.-owned weapons satellite and that the circles are the products bored technicians.

You say you don't believe in a form of energy that can't be detected but the altnerative treatment you say works believes in it. But you also say this energy form you don't believe in travels through meridians that also can't be detected.

As for the baby tabs, they aren't diluted to infinitesimal solutions. The dilutions are on the home page and indicate dilutions of 1:10,000,000 for the stronger stuff and 1:10,000,000,000,000 for the weaker stuff (though according to the theories of homeopathy the second is by far the stronger medicine.

This means that for 10,000 liters of solution, one mililiter of that will be the dissolved agent (for the irritability, wakefulness, and inflamation treatments). So odds are that in the microliter dissolved into a tablet of lactose you would get a few molecules). For the dentition stuff you will have one milliliter of dissolved substance in 10 billion liters of solvent. A billion gallons would be a swimming pool 50 feet wide, ten feet deep, and 216 miles long. But keep in mind that by modern standards these are really weak medicines appropriate for infants. To get the full effect you'd have to dilute that down to galactic proportions.

I know we're just talking in circles. The way you view the world is fundamentally different from the way I view it. But this is the paragraph that sums it up for me:

Medical science is not perfect and it takes side trips down wrong paths. But I fail to see how this failure you describe is avoided by alternative treatments. Imprecision and manipulation damns "traditional" medicine but somehow acupuncturists and homeopaths (but not brocolli wearers) avoid it? They aren't somehow interested parties in promoting their preferred results?

Vive la difference. It is obvious you think my take on this is amusingly something or other and vice versa. There'll be no convincing of anybody and we'll just go on being perplexed in the other. I do have to ask, though. Are you one of the people who listens to Coast to Coast late at night and finds themselves nodding their head a lot whispering "yeah, that makes sense; that explains everything?"

I can't believe my own eyes- Alex just confessed to being a crop-circle jerk....

;):p

Ah, but I'm waiting for the admission that he participated
in a crop circle-jerk.

No, but I did once pass a law requiring political disputes to be resolved with a circle jerk.

I concede.

I don't think I said mostly, I said some. I was being serious, but tongue in cheek at the same time. I tend to post either late at night, or in between jumping up and down and singing the alphabet and pretending to be a snake, so if it seems like I'm posting with a quarter of a brain, I probably am.

As for the skepticism, I really like most things, and I think they are fun to learn about. My full belief is limited to diet, acupuncture, and herbs. Just the other day my sister in law was saying that she was going to give her son clay baths to cure him of autism. I didn't believe that for a second. Happy? ;)

First of all I said I've known four people. Only one of those is a friend. For all I know these four people could be anomalies. Perhaps it's cured them but every other person has died. I don't believe that to be true, but my life is too important to me to take that chance. I definitely would use an herbalist, a naturopath, an acupuncturist, a piece of paper in my pocket, or anything else that has even an infinitesimal chance of helping me survive. I would use a western doctor as well though. What anyone else wants to do is ok with me though, and I won't think they are crazy or stupid for it.

Way to ruin that wacky theory for me. Thanks a lot.

Chi isn't a form of energy in the way microwaves are and such. It's simply the word to describe the life force present in all things. I see how I'm being confusing in that area, and not properly conveying what I'm trying to say.

Thanks for the info.

True. I'm quite a bit less serious.

Please show me where I claimed any of the above. (Which I'm sure you will, with a cleverly disguised, ha so there type post attached.) On the whole I think reputable alternative medicine is less corrupt, in part, I'm sure, due to the fact that it is smaller and less commercial. I personally prefer it because it takes into account the health of the entire body rather than treating symptoms. I.E. the osteopath that gave my niece a steriod inhaler for asthma when what she actually had was a dairy allergy. If even half of traditional doctors that work with kids knew off the top of their head that dairy allergies mimic asthma I'd be happy. They don't though, because many of them don't bother getting to the root of problems.

Haha! Alex Stroup does have a sense of humor! Good for you. No, I'm really not one of those people. I get the sense that you are combining every person you've ever met that's believed in anything beyond the scope of what you are comfortable believing in and projecting the combined personality onto me. Here is what I claim: there is scientific proof that herbal medicine works, which is yet to be disputed; and I like acupuncture. I thought I had more proof of it's validity than I actually do, but I conceded that back on page one. That's all. Other than that, I believe I said I'm interested in all kinds of alternative medicine. I just don't like the system of western medicine that we have in this country. That doesn't mean I don't think it works for many things.

I do find this discussion amusingly a great deal of things. I'm glad you feel the same way. (Insert wink here.)