Lounge of Tomorrow

Lounge of Tomorrow (http://74.208.121.111/LoT/index.php)
-   Lounge Lizard (http://74.208.121.111/LoT/forumdisplay.php?f=11)
-   -   Kids, Computers, and the Law (http://74.208.121.111/LoT/showthread.php?t=1916)

€uroMeinke 08-25-2005 05:33 PM

Kids, Computers, and the Law
 
I heard this story on NPR yesterday. Basicly these kids are facing criminal charges for altering their school provided computers to do such things as get around filters and install chat programs.

Perhaps this is why I'm not a parent, but if I had a kid that successfully hacked his or her computer, I'd be proud of them.

I also have to reflect a bit on this story to wonder if the same fate could fall on public workers, who - god forbid - might use their work PCs for non-work approved activities.

Again, I'm just fascinated by this blurring of public and private lives - not sure where the answer lies, but I applaud the kids in the story for learning how to better use the tools they were given.

Betty 08-25-2005 06:09 PM

Quote:

but school officials say they haven't been able to stop the practice with regular discipline.
Perhaps that should give them a clue that they need to tighten the security up a bit then.

Cadaverous Pallor 08-25-2005 07:25 PM

Heehee! Here's another adult-but-not-yet-a-parent who wants to applaud these kids for their ingenuity.

Besides, where else are they going to learn how to do this type of thing at work? :p

Name 08-25-2005 07:55 PM

I read that story on slashdot a few days ago, and it seems in the story that was posted there, some of the kids wanted to refuse the computers because they knew it would be tempting to hack them to get full access. The school refused to listen to them and insisted they take the computers anyway, and this is the result. For inquiring minds, slashdot posting at http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?s...id=180&tid=172

Oh, and an interesting tid bit from the slashdot post -
Quote:

It seems that the admin passwords were taped to the back of the iBooks
BwaHaHahahaha

Moonliner 08-25-2005 08:08 PM

Speaking as a parent. Kids must be taught to obey. Rules must be followed exactly. Total obedience to authority is crucial cuz the little buggers have more energy, think faster, and often outnumber us. It's a self preservation issue for us parents.

SacTown Chronic 08-25-2005 08:12 PM

Heh. I teach my kids to question everything. Be respectful, but don't take anyone's bullsh*t at face value.

€uroMeinke 08-25-2005 08:18 PM

The password was taped to the back? Okay, I'd fail any student who didn't alter their computer.

SacTown Chronic 08-25-2005 08:19 PM

Yeah, that changes everything.

DisneyFan25863 08-25-2005 09:12 PM

Heh....its really quite easy to get around anything they put on these computers. I do it all the time. All they do is block the chat client ports, so I just change them to use port 80 and everything is OK. As for the filters, I just use a proxy to get around them. Piece of cake.

I can even access every file on machine (most of which are normally locked) if I wanted to by running Knoppix from a Live CD. Its really quite sad.


Of course, I do this all as proof of concept. I know the computer guy pretty well at my school, and he's OK with me doing it, since he says it helps him with security anyway.

€uroMeinke 08-25-2005 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DisneyFan25863
Heh....its really quite easy to get around anything they put on these computers. I do it all the time. All they do is block the chat client ports, so I just change them to use port 80 and everything is OK. As for the filters, I just use a proxy to get around them. Piece of cake.

I can even access every file on machine (most of which are normally locked) if I wanted to by running Knoppix from a Live CD. Its really quite sad.


Of course, I do this all as proof of concept. I know the computer guy pretty well at my school, and he's OK with me doing it, since he says it helps him with security anyway.

A+

Name 08-25-2005 09:23 PM

unless you are not friends with the computer guy, then it is a quick lesson in criminal law, firsthand, by way of a felony charge.

DisneyFan25863 08-25-2005 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Name
unless you are not friends with the computer guy, then it is a quick lesson in criminal law, firsthand, by way of a felony charge.


OK, and what about the kid that just enters the password taped to the back of the machine, not knowing what account it is for, thinking its the temp login password for his account or something?




Of course, this is akin to leaving the keys ontop of you're car..if someone comes along and uses it, it is still a crime, even though the keys were left out...

€uroMeinke 08-25-2005 10:02 PM

The kid that uses the password will get farther in life than the one who doesn't - of course, I am an anarchist.

Name 08-25-2005 10:11 PM

I only said that, because the reports I read, they are being charged with felonies.

Monorail Man 08-25-2005 10:17 PM

This poses a question:

What about Spyware?

I worked on my school's computer systems for years, and the big problem we had my junior/senior year, was kids that were accidently installing spyware (clicking Yes to those nasty Java dialog boxes in FireFox). So, in theory, if a student installs spyware by a company, couldn't the school/law pin it on the unknowing student?

Name 08-25-2005 10:22 PM

The kids site

http://www.cutusabreak.org/

Ghoulish Delight 08-26-2005 08:11 AM

Nothing like a little personal responsibility. "They ddin't stop us from breaking the rules, it's the administration's fault!"

€uroMeinke 08-26-2005 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight
Nothing like a little personal responsibility. "They ddin't stop us from breaking the rules, it's the administration's fault!"

Well, taping the password on the back of the machine sounds like entrapment to me.

Besides, I'm still unclear how this violation of computer use policy become a felony? Are the laws written that broadly? Can my company charge me with a felony if I download a chat program against company policy?

And what's this about no letting them refuse the computer - there's a great civil disobediance action in that - just let the batteries die.

Name 08-26-2005 06:34 PM

if you were in pennsalvania(sp), yeah, I suppose it could be a felony.

Ghoulish Delight 08-26-2005 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke
Besides, I'm still unclear how this violation of computer use policy become a felony? Are the laws written that broadly? Can my company charge me with a felony if I download a chat program against company policy?

I believe the 13 that were charged were ones that attempted (and succeeded) to hack the replacement password that they changed it to one they discovered the problem of the password being public.

€uroMeinke 08-26-2005 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight
I believe the 13 that were charged were ones that attempted (and succeeded) to hack the replacement password that they changed it to one they discovered the problem of the password being public.

Hmmm, I read it that they had "unapproved imagry" feleony-teen-porn possession

None-the-less, the state didn't seem to have the stomach to prosecute them

Ghoulish Delight 08-26-2005 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke
Hmmm, I read it that they had "unapproved imagry" feleony-teen-porn possession

None-the-less, the state didn't seem to have the stomach to prosecute them

The story I heard was felony computer tamporing, or something like that.

TigerLily 08-27-2005 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight
Nothing like a little personal responsibility. "They ddin't stop us from breaking the rules, it's the administration's fault!"

this argument is the ONLY argument I ever hear from my child.. "it's not my fault!" "I didn't do anything wrong!" "they made me mad!" .."I shouldn't have gotten susupended! My friends broke the soda machine I just picked up the money when it fell out!" "It's grandmas fault her cell phone bill is $1000.00. If she hadn't have taken texting off of my phone I wouldn't have had to impersonate her to get it back on...and I was mad at her so I used it alot." (yeah I said NO cell phones unless they are pre-paid. I know my kid. My mother gave her one linked to her bill???)....I figure it is a teenage thing, but the day she actually admits something is her fault I may faint.

If my child did this to a school computer inside I may be happy she figured it out, but she would still be in BIG trouble because of her history of misbehaving. I can't cut my child in slack. If I give her an inch she will run for 10 miles and it's very difficult to get her back in line.

Cadaverous Pallor 08-27-2005 10:45 AM

I think the hacking itself and placing of blame are two very different discipline issues.

€uroMeinke 08-27-2005 11:57 AM

I confess, I would make a lousy parent

Not Afraid 08-27-2005 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke
I confess, I would make a lousy parent

Yes, that's why Scoundrel is so bad!

tikiboy 08-27-2005 11:44 PM

What these kids are experiencing is nothing new. People who hack into computer systems "for fun" or to even showcase a system vulnerablities are always punished harshly.

Ask Dan Farmer, the creator of SATAN -- Security Administrator Tool for Analyzing Networks. He'd run the SATAN tool on business' networks, then go to them saying, "Here's why your security sucks." And he got in a lot of trouble for it.

The kids in this case should be punished - though not to the extent the school district is asking for. They could have done a lot of damage at a time where school districts don't have a lot of $$ to pay computer folks to restore thier systems. On the other hand, I'll be the school didn't empasize the point enough how much damage can be done. They never do....

Hacking into a system is no different than breaking into a brick and mortar storefront. Unfortunatly young kids these days aren't being taught that.

Now I'll delve into history that would cause my wife to just walk away:

==================================

Hackers are just that: Hacks. Back in the day people broke into systems and wrote viruses to soothe their unaccomplished egos. Writing a computer virus requires very few smarts, but a lame-o is going to think he's cool or "smart." That's why everyone else calls them hackers.

People who can act as computer security specialists are referred to as "crackers." Though I'm sure that term is not used as frequently today as such. I ususally hear it when riding the Blue line in LA, "Hey Cracker! Give it up!!," Which translated to "Excuse me sir? Would you mind extending a charitible contribution?"

€uroMeinke 08-28-2005 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikiboy
Hacking into a system is no different than breaking into a brick and mortar storefront. Unfortunatly young kids these days aren't being taught that.

Heh - back in my school days we would tape over the locks of the school room to gain access during recess and go through people's desks. We also took blank hall passes and readmittance slips, and added check marks to the roster indicating that we had served our detention.

It's a shame these skills are no longer passed down to the younger generations...

Betty 08-28-2005 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TigerLily
If my child did this to a school computer inside I may be happy she figured it out, but she would still be in BIG trouble because of her history of misbehaving. I can't cut my child in slack. If I give her an inch she will run for 10 miles and it's very difficult to get her back in line.

I would agree with you on the getting them to take responsibility. At the same time though, don't you agree that felony charges are out of proportion with the offense committed?

I think the idea of creating a class that funnels these students into finding ways that channel that energy into something productive would be helpful. Let the students, with the help of a administrator who knows what he's doing, come up with creative ways to solve the problem. Nowadays, many companies hire hackers to teach them about their own security flaws and how to fight being hacked.

TigerLily 08-28-2005 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betty
I would agree with you on the getting them to take responsibility. At the same time though, don't you agree that felony charges are out of proportion with the offense committed?

they aren't going to get charged with felonies. I think their website already says that.

I have found that schools will throw around over the top punishments to scare kids and parents, but usually back down. When my child picked two quarters off the ground from when her friends broke the soda machine she got suspended for 3 days. When the school authorites were questioning the kids to find out how the machine was broken my daughter came forward first, explained it was happening daily for two weeks, told who broke the machine and who took the money daily and then IMHO she made the biggest mistake by saying "when all the money came out yesterday I did take 2 quarters off the ground." Yes she should have been honest and she was, but for her honesty she got suspended and i did tell the school the only lesson she had learned was not to be honest or come forward again. Then the school told me they turned it over to the sherriff dept. and she could be charged with a misdemenor. :eek: ...yeah, nothing came of it, but still. I really have low opinions of most school from what I've seen them do and say.

hmmm maybe this is why my child refuses to admit fault anymore...who knows....

Cadaverous Pallor 08-28-2005 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikiboy
Hackers are just that: Hacks. Back in the day people broke into systems and wrote viruses to soothe their unaccomplished egos. Writing a computer virus requires very few smarts, but a lame-o is going to think he's cool or "smart." That's why everyone else calls them hackers.

Like any word, especially those that are in use for new technology-related phenomena, the definition of the word "hacker" has changed a lot over the years. From here, emphasis mine:
Quote:

Regardless of the width or narrowness of the definition, most modern hackers trace the word back to MIT, where the term bubbled up as popular item of student jargon in the early 1950s. In 1990 the MIT Museum put together a journal documenting the hacking phenomenon. According to the journal, students who attended the institute during the fifties used the word "hack" the way a modern student might use the word "goof." Hanging a jalopy out a dormitory window was a "hack," but anything harsh or malicious--e.g., egging a rival dorm's windows or defacing a campus statue--fell outside the bounds. Implicit within the definition of "hack" was a spirit of harmless, creative fun.

<snip>

As the 1950s progressed, the word "hack" acquired a sharper, more rebellious edge. The MIT of the 1950s was overly competitive, and hacking emerged as both a reaction to and extension of that competitive culture. Goofs and pranks suddenly became a way to blow off steam, thumb one's nose at campus administration, and indulge creative thinking and behavior stifled by the Institute's rigorous undergraduate curriculum.

<snip>

The combined emphasis on creative play and restriction-free exploration would serve as the basis for the future mutations of the hacking term. The first self-described computer hackers of the 1960s MIT campus originated from a late 1950s student group called the Tech Model Railroad Club. A tight clique within the club was the Signals and Power (S&P) Committee--the group behind the railroad club's electrical circuitry system. The system was a sophisticated assortment of relays and switches similar to the kind that controlled the local campus phone system. To control it, a member of the group simply dialed in commands via a connected phone and watched the trains do his bidding.

The nascent electrical engineers responsible for building and maintaining this system saw their activity as similar in spirit to phone hacking. Adopting the hacking term, they began refining it even further. From the S&P hacker point of view, using one less relay to operate a particular stretch of track meant having one more relay for future play. Hacking subtly shifted from a synonym for idle play to a synonym for idle play that improved the overall performance or efficiency of the club's railroad system at the same time. Soon S&P committee members proudly referred to the entire activity of improving and reshaping the track's underlying circuitry as "hacking" and to the people who did it as "hackers."

<snip>

The wide-open realm of computer programming would encourage yet another mutation in etymology. "To hack" no longer meant soldering unusual looking circuits, but cobbling together software programs with little regard to "official" methods or software-writing procedures. It also meant improving the efficiency and speed of already-existing programs that tended to hog up machine resources. True to the word's roots, it also meant writing programs that served no other purpose than to amuse or entertain.

<snip>

A classic example of this expanded hacking definition is the game Spacewar, the first interactive video game. Developed by MIT hackers in the early 1960s, Spacewar had all the traditional hacking definitions: it was goofy and random, serving little useful purpose other than providing a nightly distraction for the dozen or so hackers who delighted in playing it. From a software perspective, however, it was a monumental testament to innovation of programming skill. It was also completely free. Because hackers had built it for fun, they saw no reason to guard their creation, sharing it extensively with other programmers. By the end of the 1960s, Spacewar had become a favorite diversion for mainframe programmers around the world.

<snip>

By the mid to late 1970s, the term "hacker" had acquired elite connotations. In a general sense, a computer hacker was any person who wrote software code for the sake of writing software code. In the particular sense, however, it was a testament to programming skill. Like the term "artist," the meaning carried tribal overtones. To describe a fellow programmer as hacker was a sign of respect.

<snip>

As younger programmers began employing their computer skills to harmful ends-creating and disseminating computer viruses, breaking into military computer systems, deliberately causing machines such as MIT Oz, a popular ARPAnet gateway, to crash--the term "hacker" acquired a punk, nihilistic edge. When police and businesses began tracing computer-related crimes back to a few renegade programmers who cited convenient portions of the hacking ethic in defense of their activities, the word "hacker" began appearing in newspapers and magazine stories in a negative light. Although books like Hackers did much to document the original spirit of exploration that gave rise to the hacking culture, for most news reporters, "computer hacker" became a synonym for "electronic burglar."

<snip>

Although hackers have railed against this perceived misusage for nearly two decades, the term's rebellious connotations dating back to the 1950s make it hard to discern the 15-year-old writing software programs that circumvent modern encryption programs from the 1960s college student, picking locks and battering down doors to gain access to the lone, office computer terminal. One person's creative subversion of authority is another person's security headache, after all.

<snip>

This central taboo against maliciousness remains the primary cultural link between the notion of hacking in the early 21st century and hacking in the 1950s. It is important to note that, as the idea of computer hacking has evolved over the last four decades, the original notion of hacking--i.e., performing pranks or exploring underground tunnels-remains intact.

<snip>

Once a vague item of obscure student jargon, the word "hacker" has become a linguistic billiard ball, subject to political spin and ethical nuances. Perhaps this is why so many hackers and journalists enjoy using it. Where that ball bounces next, however, is anybody's guess.
Sorry for the huge post. I just read a book about American English, so this entymology question caught my eye.

tikiboy 08-28-2005 08:28 PM

Thanks for the post CP.

I like how it ended with basically saying "Who know's what it could mean in 5 years!"

Name 08-29-2005 09:02 AM

Here are descroptions and pictures of MIT hacks from 1989 to around 2004.

http://hacks.mit.edu/Hacks/by_year/

tracilicious 08-29-2005 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euro
Perhaps this is why I'm not a parent, but if I had a kid that successfully hacked his or her computer, I'd be proud of them.

While I might be mildly impressed, I would also hope to teach my kids respect for other people's property.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonliner
Speaking as a parent. Kids must be taught to obey. Rules must be followed exactly. Total obedience to authority is crucial cuz the little buggers have more energy, think faster, and often outnumber us. It's a self preservation issue for us parents.

As a parent, I hope my kids never learn total obedience. My parents operated on the total obedience principle, but thankfully it didn't stick past the age of twelve. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sactown
Heh. I teach my kids to question everything. Be respectful, but don't take anyone's bullsh*t at face value.

Yeah! Rock on!

Quote:

Originally Posted by euro
Heh - back in my school days we would tape over the locks of the school room to gain access during recess and go through people's desks. We also took blank hall passes and readmittance slips, and added check marks to the roster indicating that we had served our detention.

It's a shame these skills are no longer passed down to the younger generations...

While my own "skills" in high school only extended to keeping myself out of trouble, I did fake hall passes and alter attendance records. Funny thing was that I usually told the teacher what I was up to and they never seemed to care. Or maybe they just didn't believe me...

€uroMeinke 08-29-2005 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tracilicious
Funny thing was that I usually told the teacher what I was up to and they never seemed to care. Or maybe they just didn't believe me...

In HS, we had a teacher that would sign his passes "M. Boreman" - And instructed us to do the same as no one ever checked such things...

tracilicious 08-30-2005 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke
In HS, we had a teacher that would sign his passes "M. Boreman" - And instructed us to do the same as no one ever checked such things...

That's funny. I once used a granola bar for a pass and got away with it. It was my quest my senior year of high school to convince my teachers that high school should be a sort of learning free enterprise. I felt that if I could learn the material without doing homework or showing up to class then that should be ok. Alas, I never succeeded.

Ghoulish Delight 08-30-2005 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tracilicious
I felt that if I could learn the material without doing homework or showing up to class then that should be ok. Alas, I never succeeded.

I did you one better in my Sophomore English class. I didn't do the homework, didn't sit through the class (I spent 90% of my time at the computers in the back room), AND didn't learn the material...and got an A. I'm not sure how, I believe it was my inate ability to make people think I actually know something (hah!) and the fact that I spent the summer previous touring Europe with the teacher. :D

Prudence 08-30-2005 02:25 PM

We had an English professor in high school who didn't care what we did in class. His theory was that he was going to get his pound of flesh regardless and he didn't care if we chose to play in class and work on our own time or work in class and play on our own time.

But then the administration decided they didn't agree with the policy and we needed to have our butts in chairs, bent over books, even if some of us didn't read and retain well in that setting.

Some class activities are better done in class, to be sure. But other activities, like reading literature, are better done in the appropriate environment. And sitting in one of those desk/chair units where one can't adjust for height or posture, and under bad portable classroom lighting, and being distracted by the sniffles and snorts of 29 other students is not the appropriate environment.

DisneyFan25863 08-30-2005 04:58 PM

Heh...on the subject of classes now...I just want to say I have the best classes I have ever had. For instance, I walk into my English class today (in which we are doing ancient lit), and my English teacher actually decked out the whole room as ancient Egypt, with a little Nile river and everything. He was even dressed up as King Tut. Really awesome.


I love teachers like him that make it actually fun to learn!


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:12 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.