What's an antiquated programmer to do?
 

Hmmm....a predicament.

I have been programming in a Unisys proprietary language called LINC for 16.5 years. I've dabbled in a few other things. When I began in 1990, it was relatively new, hot, and growing. However, it is dying in the US, though in Europe and New Zealand it still has a presence. It is a language for programming financial systems, though it could be used for any sort of massive data management.

Changes in management to where I contract (and have for the last 10 years) have resulted in political pressure to change to something called SAP. A big ugly monster that will cost this place an estimated 8 million bucks to convert to. Up until February the general manager was completely against this expenditure. He retired. New guy comes in from corporate. He wants to move in the new direction.

I had been told about a month ago that they were going to reduce my billable hours due to budgetary concerns. That was a bummer and a surprise, as I had only two months before gotten a 13% rate increase approved.

So.....based on what they've communicated to me, I could have this work for anywhere from six months to four years, and the level of billable hours could decrease further.

So what to do? Learning other languages is not a problem, however, everyone wants someone to have experience in a given language. I have no desire to start at the bottom of the food chain somewhere with 16.5 years of management, analysis, design, and programming under my belt.

Career change? Go back to school? Everything I have been trying to think of to do results in a dramatic decrease in income and also takes away my home office, and I LOVE working from my home office.

Sigh. Sad to be 37 and antiquated.

Ideas?

I have no idea...but now I'm curious what mainframe you're running on. I used to work for Unisys, you know.

Used to be A-series. I worked locally on a Micro-A, but the client was running on an A-12. However, 11 years ago or so they went PC based for development, and the client has downsized from an A-12 to a Clearpath machine, but I have no idea on the specs of the Clearpath. Only that it crunches numbers and accesses the database really, really fast.

Consulting
Teaching
Move in with ML and become a kept man

Oooh, Clearpath. Yeah, definite upgrade from the A-series.

By the time I got to Unisys, they were out of the mainframe business. We had a few of the old bastards lying around, 'cause they were so damned reliable that we just had to keep supporting them. But I never touched them. I was firmly entrenched in the open systems (ES2000, ES5000, ES7000, etc.).

Geezer.

Is it possible that your skills will be come more valuable now that there are less LINC programmers around? Any contract jobs on monster? Maybe a two pronged approach, LINC, and learn SAP. If you know where they are headed, maybe you can get your skillset up to speed before it's needed.

I have no good advice, but my thoughts are with you on your quest for your next move. I must confess, although you're all writing in plain English, I understand almost nothing being said in this thread.:blush:

Ditto what she said ;)

This is actually a strategy I am formulating as far as how to approach my client with it. Does my client need an experienced SAP programmer, or do they need someone completely familiar with their current system and business who can learn SAP?

But....I do confess to being burned out on programming. I really have only stayed with it because I make a good contract rate and I get to work from home and set my own hours and coach basketball. Working out of an office building somewhere takes at very least some of that away.

I was thinking the same thing. Seems your company wouldn't want to throw away someone with all those years of management, analysis and design experience.

this was my thinking. as a fellow dinosaur (couple decades of cobol programming here) the market early on was wide and varied...now its narrow and vanishing (or so Im often told). However...those who still use it (either by necessity, shallow pockets or fear of progressing to the next level) often go to great lengths to retain those who know the old ways well enough to stem off having to spend the bazillion dollars upgrading to the next level.

get a good head hunter in addition to doing your own searches. do lesser contracts for more money. make the old ways your specialty instead of your liability. a great many companies out there still need us both. while doing so, start taking on some of the SAP stuff.

your skills after that many years far...FAR exceed just the knowledge of a language. "the biz" as my mentor once told me, goes eons beyond simple languages. you could be a IT/user liason. knowing how, where, when and why to work with the end users is a career all to itself. knowing how to translate one to the other is more valuable than gold to the right employer.

a tinkers damn

A company I worked for in LA switched over to SAP - ack it was a nightmare. Totally un-user friendly.

Do you have any collegues that may have had to make similar switchovers that you could network with?

I've sent out some exploratory emails to some former coworkers who moved on to bigger and better things. Both would be in positions to offer me jobs, and have told me that if I am ever in need of work to call them. The problem is I don't want to move out of Phoenix to their locations (one of which is Sacramento....no offense, Sac). My two younger would adjust, but my 12 year old would be devastated, as would the wife and I.

a number of companies use telecommuting for consultants and contractors. many I've worked with in the past would fly off to a job interview off and on and work from remote locations via secured networks.

alot of it was just helping a company thru grunt work, but from the numbers I saw, some grunt work pays pretty darn well.

just a thought

SAP is flexible enough for a wide array of applications.

Which means it doesn't work well for any of them.

It's funny, Kevy....everyone I've talked to that has migrated to SAP or has worked with it hates it. Conversions are typically twice as long as anticipated and twice as costly as budgeted. But for some reason, they are the thing.

What makes me sick is the $8 million conversion estimate equates to about 30 years of operations and modifications in what they currently use, it works for all they need, and they are complaining about having to cut costs.

$8 MIllion for SAP? We are moving that direction over the next four years and will be spending orders of magnitude more. There' some money to be made in knowing SAP. The more I learn about the more gaps I see in what it does and what a company would like it to do. Plugging those holes could easily take one to retirement.

An encouraging update......

My partner (who handles the business end of the business) has done some calling to a few old friends he still has within the organization and the current IT manager (my partner used to be the financial controller for this particular place).

Apparently they are six months to a year from even making the official decision to go SAP, but there is no question what the decision will be. Once the decision is made, they are looking at probably four years of conversion. Their IT department is not going to be consumed by corporate.

Their IT manager was very interested in keeping us around should I learn SAP. The knowledge I have of their systems (crud, I've written 90% of what they use) is far more valuable than lots of experience with SAP, and even with my confiscatory rates, I am cheaper than hiring someone locally (primarily due to geography related higher pay requirements and benefits and employment taxes). My learning curve, after acquiring basic SAP knowledge, would be in conversion of the system over time. Of course, I have no idea what the platform requirements are for working with SAP locally.....something else I need to learn.

So....now I need to look into SAP training, the timing of when I need to do it, and what it will cost. The husband of the athletic department secretary where I coach works for SAP (or whatever the name of the company is that owns it), so I am going to contact him to assist in finding out such info.

That's only the local cost for this shop. From what I understand, corporate wide the cost is a staggering 9 figure number. Yes, over one hundred million dollars.

I find it so incredibly hard to believe that any system is worth that much money.

Personally, I never did go in for all that instructor lead stuff...

As a starting point, might I suggest..

We should get a little group together to whine on this subject. There are a few of us who think that around here. Just not all about SAP

Moon - serious handy links. Many thanks.

Although something tells me the Bahama Blue Soap Dish at the bottom of the Amazon search you provided isn't going to help me much. Strange what comes up on various searches.

When my current partner was the financial controller at the place, he documented to corporate how much money the current project (which was his pet and he initiated) had saved in terms of man hours both in accounting and in IT. Only two years in it had already paid for itself. It was phenominal. Something tells me the SAP conversion isn't going to provide the same sort of immediate (or even long term) benefit.

Why do you think they call it "sap"?

Hey, thats kind of how I feel about PeopleSoft.

Didn't DLR convert to SAP?

Moonliner, you are a genius, in 24 hours, scaeagles can be well on the road to riches.

I saw that one.....something tells me it might take a bit longer.

Yeah, 24 hours is pretty silly, it would probably take at least 36 to 48 hours.

Potential solution.....

I've kept in contact with old work contacts over the years....and happened to run into one a year or so ago. He told me if I was ever in need of work to look him up. I did. He called me tonight after I sent him an email this morning and he had already talked to his CEO about me. They are interested because of my business and consulting experience and aren't concerned about my lack of current tech. I was fortunate to pick up a couple of different languages while crossing over on projects when I worked with this guy, and he remembers how quickly I picked them up.

Best part - the office is 5 miles from my house. And I may still have the option of working from home some of the time. And I may still be able to work coaching into the equation. And it isn't nearly the reduction in income that I was expecting (probably less than 5% from what he told me on the phone).

I'm going to go visit with them next week.

A bit of encouraging news. I really needed some.

:snap::cool::snap:

That's great Sca!!!!!!!

Congratulations ! I'm sure it will work out for the best, one way or another.

Nothing is set yet....many, many things to think about.

Staying in Phoenix is top priority, so that's a plus.

However, I've been working from home in shorts and a t-shirt for 10+ years as my own boss. A cube farm environment will be WAY different. Distractions, a boss.....scary.

But it keeps food on the table and a roof over the head and gets me into the real world of current tech, ridding me of my dinosaur status.

Once the bird is in the hand (no I don't mean a REAL bird. I mean the new job). There's no downside to taking a shot at the two in the bush (a reference to the old job). Send them a note congratulating them on the move to SAP letting them know about your intention to leave them high and dry (move on) and offer to accept a kings ransom (enough cash to retire) if they really need you to help with the conversion. On a, what was it a $100,000,000+ job? There are sure to be a few loose millions floating around. :)

I'm currently formulating a strategy as to what exactly to do.

The new company, from what I gather, is exceptionally aggressive in their growth. I plan on making the suggestion to them that as SAP is the 800lb gorilla, perhaps adding someone to develop this capability within their company migh be to their advantage, particularly since I come with a big project possibility.

I also plan on continuing to work on a minimal basis for the current job so they aren't left in a world of hurt. No need to burn bridges.

As I develop my strategy, I will certainly update the thread.

Well, a scant three hours from now I will be sitting in an interview. I haven't interviewed for a position in 13 years (a position was offered that would have moved me Sacramento - with a friend who has informed me I can go work for him anytime). Surprisingly, I'm not nervous.

Tips? Tricks? No-nos? I know the basics, such as not inquiring about salary, benefits, vacation time, or sick time. Those things present themselves when and if a position is offered.

-Arrive early.
-Wear a tie or a suit.
-Smile.
-Only talk about those no-no subjects if they bring it up first.
-Don't shake someone's hand with clamy, cold hands. Run them under warm water beforehand.
-Use that charm you said you have.
-Don't be sweaty.
-Prep yourself on some of the questions you know they're going to ask you. (Why you want to work here, why did you leave your last position, why should we higher you, etc.)
-Give him/her eye contact.
-Don't fart during the interview process. In fact, don't eat greasy or gas inducing foods prior to your interview. Even a supressed fart can be audible.

I'm not sure I would bring up the SAP idea in an interview...

Hi!, I know what YOU need better than you! You need SAP capability!
Well, no, I don't really know SAP but I could learn it...

Is the vibe I'm getting from that.

The best advice is, Relax. Confidence not arrogance, stress ability and adaptability. It also matters who you are talking to. Is it a techie nerd, or a clueless (about tech) manager? You would have to approach each very differently

Give it a try, Leo.
:evil: :D

Do your homework. Find out as much about the company as you can. Have some questions ready to ask them about the job, the work environment, expectations, etc.

Great. I'm sunk already. :) Strike one.

Yeah, Moonliner, I won't bring up the SAP stuff in the interview, but I'm sure SAP itself will come up. They will ask me why I am interested in leaving what I'm currently doing, and their migration to SAP without being willing to commit to using me after the migration is the one of the two main reasons.

Another bummer. I don't think I've gone longer than 10 minutes without farting in the last 5 years. Strike number two. (get it? number two! hahahaha!)

Good news is in the rest of that I don't see any other strikes. Suits in Phoenix during the summer are universally accepted as stupid, so I'll be going with the long sleeve white shirt and tie. Something tells me the jean shorts won't do go along with that, though.

Thanks for the input.

Casually mention you'll blow the guy for a toaster and/or a job.



Oh, and best of luck to you, Leo. I'm sure you'll do fine.

Good luck on your interview.
Break a leg.
:)

Good luck!!!!

Just bring the toaster with you. Or a blender. It may make a better impression.

But Sacremento is further away than 5 hours. At least you'll be in the same state as DL though.

Here's hoping it's going well!

Well, that was interesting.

Perhaps I don't remember what interviews are supposed to be like. I was there (or at lunch with them) for 3.5 hours. I talked with many, many people.

I was only asked four questions. 4. IV. (business related, that is)

?????

It was as if they were selling me on why I should come work for them.

Now, I used to work with the guy who was my contact there. He was the first employee of the company which now employs about 90 and has a lot of pull there. Apparently he talked me up pretty big. I met the CEO and he asked my contact "Is this the new developer? Have you hired him yet?" I cannot believe how little they asked me.

The last thing I was told was that the ball was in my court. I can come work there if I want to. The only catch is a window of opportunity that isn't that big, so I would need to decide within a couple of weeks.

Every question I asked them I got responses that were better than I could have hoped for.

Dazed. Confused. Optimistic.

Now help me out here... your post earlier led me to beleive that this job, or one with this person, was offered once before but would require relocating.

Does this job which you interviewed for require the same?
Was this one of those interviews where they were looking to see if you calted your food before you tasted it, and all that rot?

And you said you were optomistic. Thats fabulous!!!

I believe that's the point in the interview where one begins demanding a corner office, Mondays and Fridays off, 24 hour butler service, and your own personal toaster whore, no?

Sounds like you interviewed well - now onto negotiations ;)

Congrats & Good Luck

Different guy. I have a friend who is a big muckity muck in the Sacramento area that has told me I can work for him any time I want to. This is different. Different big muckity muck friend here locally. Not as big on the muckity scale as the Sacramento guy, but big nonetheless. This requires no relocation, which is priority one for me.

They didn't seem to want to know much about me. I volunteered a lot more than they asked. No checking the salt situation.

Thanks. I do wonder how much I should negotiate. They already gave me a ball park figure which almost matches my current contract work level, but this also has various benefits which self employment does not offer.

I mean, I have NO experience in most of what they do tech wise. But they almost pooped when we were talking about what I do now with programming in the world of accounting, because NONE of their current developers have much understanding of various things I work on every day.

Gotta think. Don't want to be/seem greedy, and I don't think I'm being low balled at all.

Since you've been off the standard job market radar so long, it might be worth investing some bucks at a place like salary.com to see breakdowns of competative salary/benefits/bonus rates in your area/field/level of experience. That will give you a good starting point and some concrete ammo if they ask you why.

Good thought, GD. Thanks.

OH! One other big negative - and no offense but this can't come into play in my thinking - no work day access to the LoT. Can't go into a job and even look like I'm not working as hard as I can to get up to speed.

Thats wonderful.
That was actually the way I followed that post, but was confused by BTD's post about being in the same state as DLR.
I should have just followed my own thought.

Sounds like they want you. We've done interviews like that and it was more a personality interview then a skills to make sure you'd fit in with the team.

That said, the last two interviews I went on, that I was hired for (former and new company) spent most of the interview telling me why I should come work for them and selling me on the position and company. Three hours and a lunch... meeting with the CEO... you're good to go. Time to start negoitations... like working from home 2 days a week, 3 1 week vacations at the DLR and lots of shiny objects.

Oh that's it. Turn that job down now. At least I'm not being public about not being able to have work day access. :p Oh wait..

Yeah, I say the same thing at each new job. And then after a couple of days... :D


Sounds like the interview went well. I'm certain the negotiations will go well. Congrats. :)

Thanks. And no one should worry. I will continue to grace the boards with my all knowing conservative presence in some capacity or another. My vast knowledge and intellect, however, will not be around to amaze you quite as much.:)

Is it around now? I hadn't noticed. :D :evil:

Make sure you get any kind of info on the job in writing. Sometimes people promise the world but getting them to back it up in writing is a different story...

Absolutely. I've decided that today I'm going to send off an email to my contact asking for specifics of an offer, for confirmation of a certain amount of flexibility in the work schedule, their approval of continuing a small amount of contract work for my current client on the side, understanding of my desire to keep coaching....all that.

One advantage is I know the guy who will be hiring me pretty well both personally and professionally. His integrity is unquestionable. I also considermyself relatively perceptive, and I met and observed a whole lot of people. They were all....happy. I don't think they could all be that good of actors.

It could be a cult.

If they ask you to shave your head, run.

Because they all had a shiny new toaster strategically located at arms reach. I predict you will go far at this new job. I also predict there will be more sphinter reconstruction as a result.

I will miss the daily sharing of "knowledge" that you bless us with however. I wonder if we can get Scott McClellan to sign up and fill the void. :rolleyes: ;)

Seriously though, I really hope it all works out well for you. :)

Hmmm...come to think of it, they were all wearing long flowing white robes, and called their CEO "Baba Richard". I gotta learn to pick up on these subtle clues more quickly.

The only thing I have to add is, make sure this is something you really want to do. If you have doubts, don't do it - unless you are desparate. I've taken a position in the past that I had my ddoubts about - but couldn't resist the pay - and ended up not happy. Happy is good.

I don't do what I currently do because I enjoy it. I do it because there is nothing like being your own boss. What I do is stagnant and boring.

Learning something new while being paid is exciting. And the work seems interesting and challanging. But I hear you.

Every job has one drawback or another. I love what I do 90% of the time but I miss the big salary and it can be a PITA on holidays. But, it makes me happy. That became a priority for me in the last couple of years.

Have an official offer as of this morning. Not quite the level of pay I was expecting, but I understand why. It's an issue of a complete lack of knowledge of anything they work with vs. 16 years of practical experience in the business world. It's about 10% lower than market value in what I am experienced in, but 40% higher than someone coming in as a complete newby.

However, they recognize my experience in the real world of business and consulting, so they are willing to review my salary every three months during the first two years and increase based on performance. I can live with that, because I learn well.

Even with that, the offer is at almost exactly what I am making with my currently trimmed hours in consulting. No job insecurity. Only a chance for increased pay. No move necessary. Learning new stuff. Able to support my former job for a limited number of hours per month (which is a nice addition to my salary). Able to coach.

So why am I hesitating? I am concentrating way too much on giving up what I have now in terms of working at home. Time to grow up, I suppose. After ten years of doing that, though, it's going to be a difficult adjustment.

Sigh. I old them I'd let them know by Friday.

Take the job. Wow them with your abilities, then hit them up for a raise when you've shown your stuff. Congrats- it sounds like a good one! :cheers:

I say take it. If the job doesn't work out, you can just blame it on Clinton and look for the next job. :D





In all seriousness, go for it. :)

I'm almost certain I am going to. The only way I don't is if my current client (who my business partner is talking with probably at this moment) meets some conditions that I do not believe they can meet.

Among them -

Commit to the former level of billable hours (prior to their cut 2 months ago);

Commit to that level of billable hours for 5 years;

Have an automatic 5% rate increase annually;

Pay for all expenses incurred for my training in SAP.

Those are the biggies.

And I see no way they can meet those.

If they did, I would have to seriously pause and it would probably become more stressful to me.

About a year ago I made the switch from Home office to office slave. Here are my thoughts on the matter...

Good:
I've lost a few pounds because my fridge is not walking distance from my desk anymore.

I get to meet, and talk with people everyday who did not come from build-a-bear. It's nice to have someone to share work issues with that also has a stake in the outcome.

Networking. I know more people who move on to other places and you never know when that might come in useful.

Bad:

Schedule. The self based flexible schedule is the best. Now I have to struggle every time the kids have an orthodontist appointment, sick visit, etc...

Added costs: Parking, gas, time on the road, business cloths, lunch out (which I do too much), etc..

Don't forget to update your car insurance. You should get a slight break if you drive to work since it means your car is sitting in a lot for 8 hours a day.

All excellent thoughts, Moonliner. Even your bads don't apply too much to what I'm looking at.

After a probationary period, occassionally working from home isn't a problem.

I can work 6:00-2:30 or 6:30-3:00, meaning after school stuff isn't a problem.

The office is 5 miles from my house.

I wear business clothes to coach in, so I have enough.

A choice between two competing jobs sounds like a good problem to have.

Should your new job require pants, I can recommend this thread

Yeah. It depends on personality, though. I over analyze. I'd go nuts trying to figure out which to do. And then I'd be convinced I made the wrong choice in a "grass is greener" kind of way.

Ms. Frizzle always says "Take chances, make mistakes, get messy!"

In a really scary way I think you and I are cosmically related. Thats totally the way I was taking my last two jobs.

Only someone forgot to teach me politics, or get me into basketball.

There's still time, Ponine. BY the way, I've always felt that I was adopted (because of the stupidity of most of my family I could not possible be genetically related to them), so perhaps my birthday is a fabrication and we are twins separated at birth? Anyway....

Just talked with my business partner. He spoke with our main client and told them I'm probably done with them in mid August. He was "shocked". Hang on a second....

He's cut our billable hours by 30% or so. He informed us that they could be cut more in January. We told him cuts and uncertainty could lead me to find other emplyment. He said he understood that.

So how can he be shocked?

So now he's going into some emergency meetings and my business partner is probably going out there on Thursday and Friday to help them finalize a months worth of 16 hour days for me. Good news is that I probably will continue to support them for 8-10 hours/week in the evenings, and that's some nice extra income.

Pssssst!


It's FRIDAY

Don't you owe us an update to this tread?

Yep. I do. Just not yet.

Out of courtesy to my current client, I have an opene project which I figured is two to three months of work once I get some information from them that I have been waiting on seemingly for an eternity, so I confirmed with my future employer that I could start on August 14 - 4 weeks from Monday. I can do 4 weeks of 12-16 hours 6 or 7 days a week and get that open project done. However, I haven't heard from them since Wednesday, so i don't know if they are willing to fund that much activity for me in such a short period of time.

If not, I'm going to try to start the new job August 1. So I'm waiting to hear from them. I will be accepting the position offered. I'm just trying to wait until this afternoon to officially do it. I suppose I can try to commit to them to let them know by Monday if I'll be starting August 1 - much to their preference - or waiting until August 14.

Called and officially accepted the position. Going in this afternoon to talk with them and meet with HR and stuff like that.

Called my business partner who wanted to give our current client until Wednesday (one week since they were notified) to commit to an aggressive schedule. So in talking with the new guys, they are fine with Aug 14, but if I let them know I can start on Aug 1, they are open o that all the way up to July 31.

Thanks for all the support/advice/prayers/mantras/vibes/encouragement/and whatever the hell else you've all offered.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!

Congrats!

Hopefully it will be worthy of congratulations.

I am happy that I will be learning something new, but I'm nervous in an "old dog, new trick" kind of way. It's been a long, long time - oh, 16 years - since I had to prove my worth.

You will do great. Learning something new will be easier with your 16 years of experience behind you.

Congratulations!

Change is scary. LoT addiction withdrawls are scarier. That's why you gotta work in IT :evil:

Well, I went in this afternoon to meet with them again. Did some stuff with HR, talked with my contact, a few other people, the CEO stopped to welcome me, and everyone was very friendly and genuinely seemed happy that I have joined the team.

Except the guy I will be answering to. He didn't even look at me. I don't think he agreed with the decision to hire me. I'm going to have to prove myself quickly.

Lovely.. . Forgot to factor office politics/dynamics into the equation. Never mind, you've a pre-teen in your house- you can handle anything!:cheers:

Ask him if he likes appliances.

:)

Finally....my current client got me the info to cram on a 10 week project to get it to testing phase in three weeks.

I will offically, now, be starting at the new job on Aug 14 and notified them, which they were fine with, though still wished I was starting earlier.

I look forward to momentary breaks from this push in which I will surely pop in to the LoT.

I need some sleep... :D

Congratulations - once you live through the next few weeks I'm sure it will all end up having been worth it.

I hope so. I think I can do 12-14 hour days 6 days/week with maybe a 4 hour day on Sundays. That comes to about 82 work hours/week for the next 3 weeks, or a total of 246 hours. The problem is that I estimate about 360-400 hours of work needed on it to get the project to testing stage.

A conundrum indeed. I could sit at my desk longer, I suppose, but I'd be completely worthless and probably counterproductive.

After 12-14 hours, you are going to be pretty punch drunk, and your productivity will approach zero (I've been there). I think it may take more than 3 weeks, unless you can quickly rope your family into programming for you.

Child labor - excellent idea. As my dad would always say " what do you think we had kids for? Now go mow the lawn."

A wise man, you dad.

I resurrected this thread to thank you all for the well wishes. Next week I will have been at my new job for an entire year. Very difficult to believe. The last 11 months have seemed shorter than the first 4 weeks.

I've learned a lot, am expanding my skill set, finding and solving problems they didn't know they had previously, and probably creating new ones as well. It's a good place to work, and I've learned better to balance working at an office (as opposed to working at home). I'm also now working 6:30-3:15, so it will work out picking my kids up from school this year (except on Mondays when I have a standing 3:00 meeting).

For those of you that remember, no more of this guy....

But I still miss having you around more.

That's means you should be getting your bonus ham any day now!

Don't get MBC all excited, Kevy. I don't think there will be any such bone-us happening.