LoT Book CLub - Book 2 - Wind Up Bird Chronicle by Haruki Murakami
 

The MB Bovary discussion is winding down (but not necessarily over) so I thought it was time to go with our second choice book:

Wind Up Bird Chronicle by Haruki Murakami

I think this book will provoke discussion while reading, (and I encourage that)so I'd like to propose that discussions be within spoiler tags with the approximate page numbers being announced for the spoiler.

EXAMPLE:

Page 235


Chris and I have already read this book but will be re-reading it so it is fresh. Plus, we both LOVED it - and I hope you will too.

Let's give it a month from today (August 13th) as a goal to finish reading.

Grrr, I'm mere pages away from finishing MB, but have left it at home 2 days in a row. :mad:

The library was having a paperback sale a couple weeks ago and I picked up a couple dozen books (since I don't like mass market paperbacks it was good that the name was a misnomer and there were plenty of trade paperbacks to choose from).

Among the ones I picked up was Murakami's After the Quake. Maybe I'll read that and insert my rather confusing comments into your discussion.

For me, a comment on page 235 is halfway into the next book down in the stack (Plato's Protagoras and Meno) and that page is about the discussion between Socrates and Meno about what is virtue.

After the Quake is a collection of short stories all dealing with a similar theme (guess). It will give you a flavor of Murakami and maybe you'll join us for the book.

Now's a bad time for me to start reading, but I'll see what I can do a couple weeks from now.

I just remembered the Barnes and Noble Mother's Day gift certificate in my wallet: whoo-hoo! :D

I have three weeks vacation from school starting approximately 3pm on the 29th - so I'm in!

Working on American Gods by Gaiman, but I'll join in ASAP.

I've already started Wind-up - Yay! Maybe I'll keep up with this one, it's more interesting and easier to read than MB was (a physical book rather than a eBook).

Awesome, I was really hoping that we would choose this as our second book. Might I suggest though, having a new poll each month, instead of just going down the list from the first poll. We're all always reading new things and changing interests and thus will probably have new suggestions every month. Thoughts?

I think a poll every other month would be good. Read the top 2, then take a new poll.

I'm completely fine with doing additional polls. I have a selection to add to the list that wasn't on the original.

Heh - I like the polls, even if we don't read them together I'm pulling up some cool books for my own pleasure. Just got a copy of Cloud Atlas, which I'll probably take on after Wind up Bird Chronicle.

I have a niggling question, for those who have already read this book:

Well, honestly, I'll have to read this again in order to answer that properly, but:



Honestly though, I'm very sketchy on the details - so I'll reserve the right to revisit this response.

I realize that I'm getting all of the Murakami stories I've read mixed up.

I'm good with this if others are. A poll every month is ok, but the voting and nominating takes a while, so every other month would eliminate a bit of the hassle.

I just read The Accidental, phenomenal writing style. Really liked it.

Okay, I was at the local Barnes and Noble, and maybe it was the Asian dinner we'd just eaten, but something reminded me to get this book. I couldn't remember the title and barely remembered the last name of the author, but we found it and I read the first chapter prior to leaving the store.

I liked it. I wanted to say I was bored, just to be ****ty, but I wasn't. I predict a late night reading session- my apologies to all whose hair I will be cutting in my sleep tomorrow.

As long as all that gets cut is hair, you'll be fine :)

Oh hell, I left it at home. :mad: I've been absolutely devouring it.

I've been a total traitor to the LoT Book CLub. I saw the movie of the first one and instead of reading the second one, I'm reading 'The Stand' (Unabridged) for the third time.

Quick question about Murakami. I'm now reading After the Quake and in the About the Author section it lists both him and Jay Rubin, the translator.

It mentions that Murakami has translated F. Scott Fitzgerald, John Irving, Truman Capote and Raymond Carver to Japanese so he must be fluent in English. Is there any particular reason he doesn't do the English translation of his own work?

Perhaps he just doesn't like/isn't good at translating the other way. I know that even when I was still close to fluent in Spanish, it would have been easier for me to translate something from Spanish into English than vice versa. Or it may be that he just doesn't want to do it for his own work. I found this quote from him:

"Sometimes a book appeals to me because I want to introduce it to Japanese readers. That's one reason. Another reason is that I want to learn something from this book, and translation is the best way. You can read every detail, every page, every word. You can learn so much. It's my teacher. I want to try many different styles. Translation is a kind of vehicle. One time you can write F. Scott Fitzgerald and one time Raymond Chandler. It's a transformation."

Seems to indicate the latter reason.

Yeah, I figured it was most likely something along the lines of just not wanting to do it.

But I can see being an author and being ok with someone else writing your words in another language but it would be a weird anguish to be able to read it fluently. I'd be constantly second guessing the translator in word choice and sentence construction.

But on the off chance it was something more interesting I figured I'd ask.

I wouldn't be surprised if Murakami was consulted on the project.

Neither would I. I was just curious if there was a more interesting reason than the obvious one.

Of course, once I write something I almost never read it again so maybe he is the same way and therefore won't be annoyed by such things. But if I were consulted it would probably quickly turn into a "you sit there and right it down the way I say" dictation session.

If you haven't already visited his website, take a look. It's a very nice site.

Plus, there are cats roaming about.

That's a very bad site. You tricked me.

I think Japanese may be an incredibly hard language to translate into English, because I almost always find the writing somewhat frustrating. I imagine a lot gets lost in translation, and as I read the English I find myself wishing the English itself was *better*.

It doesn't, on the whole, effect how much I enjoy or dislike the overall story, but I've such a love of individual sentences and phrases, and those are - for me - a bit few and far between in this book. I had to keep reminding myself that it's a translation, and the fault really lies with my own inability to read in other languages. Ah, well.

Really? This is the second Murakami book I've read, and I've found them to be very well translated*. Perhaps it's my subtitled anime training, but I think the translation reads very easily while still maintaining a lot of the uniquely Japanese style.



*Edited to add: Well, I suppose without learning Japanese and reading the originals, I can't vouch for them being truly well translated...but I have found them eminently readable.

I agree quite a bit with what EH is saying here, and I have found it to be quite true for myself. I'm still waiting for that bit that propels me into staying up until 5AM to read the book, as opposed to staying up until 5AM to play video games.

:)

Might happen soon, though.

It's a matter of taste, I guess. I finsished The Wind Up Bird Chronicle loving it, but I slogged through the first 100 pages because I thought the writing style (or, rather, the English translation) sounded amateurish. That abated as I became more used to it, and became more interested/invested in the storytelling. But it took a lot of time. I had a similar problem with Battle Royale. Prefer the Manga to the book's prose, and again I think it's the translation. I wouldn't say the translations are poor, so much as Japanese-to-English translations may frustrate me on whole.

For me it happened somewhere between pages 300 and 400 (as discussed in my LJ). Onwards, my friend. Onwards!

I'll be near the Kinokuniya bookstore in San Francisco next week and I was thinking about getting a Japanese language copy of After the Quake to get Lani's opinion on the translation.

It really hard with translation to know what belongs to the translator and what belongs to the source. It can make a huge difference (I've read Crime and Punishment in three different translations and one of them is vastly superior to the other two). I enjoyed the first story in After the Quake very much but at several points the writing consisted of lengthy periods of short, simple, declarative sentences which I find a little tiring.

I assume that is carried over from the source and not a writing style introduced by Jay Rubin.

I can understand that. It took me a while after I started watching anime in earnest to get over that feeling with the subtitles. English translated from Japanese almost seems like its own language sometimes. I guess I really am just fluent in it, 'cause these translations seem very natural to me.

I should remind everyone that if there ever a woman fluent in Japanese translated to English, it's me. I'm living in the House of Japanese Translated To English. /cough

I am still slightly uncomfortable with the translation, mainly because the situations, the acts are not always plausible to me. I am not far enough into the book to say either way, though. I'll just have to plug forward.

Wait, ya'll started a new book while I was away? Guess I'd better get humping.

I've tried a couple times to go ahead and join in on this one but haven't found a bookstore yet that has it in stock and I'm too lazy to deal with ordering it.

I'll check my local used book store and my even local'er B&N. If I strike out in those two places, I promise to cut and run.

Have you checked libraries? They'll even transfer it to your closest branch if they have it at one of the other branches.

I don't read Japanese and love every single Murakami I've read (I think I'm up to 8), so I'm grateful for any translation. To me, it seems very natural as to what I've experienced visiting contemporary Japan, but I read for visuals and overall story more than I read for language - although language has a lot to do with my enjoyment. I'm just not very interesting in writing in a craft as much as storytelling as a craft.

And I'm more a "the story is IN the telling," kind of girl. I can love an idea even if I don't care too much for how it's expressed. But I will be left wishing it was expressed differently.

Take "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" and Bladerunner (the film it's based on) for example. The story, in both, is essentially the same, and I LOVE the story. But the film does a much better job at telling the story than Philip K. Dick does, IMO. That's usually not the case with most film adaptations, but I think the screenplay is superior to Dick's writing in a lot of ways.

It's like folk tales, as well. One version of the same folk tale can be a marvel, and another can be a bore. It's all in the telling.

So, though I love the story in The Wind Up Bird Chronicle, I'm sure I'd prefer reading it in its original Japanese, or reading an improved English translation. If he's written a book in English, I'd certainly be curious to read that.

It was probably all the humping that distracted you in the first place.

If I'm reading a book to discuss it I prefer to be at liberty to maul and spindle it. But I did look. All five copies in the possession of the Alamade County Library are well-over due and there is a queue. The Oakland Public Library does not have it in English, though they do seem to have pretty complete collections of his books in Japanese, Russian, Korean, and Chinese.

Ou local Borders had three or four copies tonight as well as most of his other translated books. Get thee to another bookstore - stat.

I've been to Borders and Barnes & Noble and the local new/used store with a more eclectic collection. B&N says they have 2 copies but they can't find them.

No biggie. It'll happen or it won't.

I got the last copy at my bookstore. But if a local book club wanted to read Kafka on the Shore, my bookstore's so ready.

Yeah, all of my spots had multiple copies of Kafka on the Shore as well.

Maybe it's a sign that you should read that one instead.

Or Oprah's about to choose it for her book club.

Eeep! I hope not. The LoT selection is really engaging so far, and I'd hate to have to stop reading because another work became an Oprah selection. I refuse to read Oprah books.

Kafka's the latest book and recently came out in paperback.

What she said.


I'm sure Oprah is a perfectly nice person and a wonderful judge of .....whatever; I just prefer to pick my reading material the old-fashioned way- without celebrity endorsement.

I still like the story, but I fear it is veering into an area that annoys me greatly: the gratuitous beating- over-the-head with symbolism area. I shall persevere because I really like the style of writing (even though I know it's likely diluted by translation) and the characters thus far. I was surprised by an earlier comment regarding the nature of the prose- it absolutely does not strike me in the same manner. I am used to reading translations, so I suppose I give leeway for any difficulties in that area, but I really like his writing thus far. I am sure I will buy more of his works, and that says something. I seldom purchase modern literature; I tend to either borrow or get from the library, but authors I enjoy I purchase for our own little library.

Thanks to all who recommended this book.:)

I was in San Francisco last Tuesday and found a copy at a bookstore. I'm currently around page 400 (of the trade paperback edition).

This is concerning two paragraphs on page 329.

Okay, I was at the library and found myself looking for any copies of his other works. (There were none). I only do that, and very rarely, with authors I like. I'm nearly finished with the book- I read at lightspeed up until the last 1/8th of the book, and now I keep falling asleep while reading. (Not a comment on the book- just been working a lot and not sleeping well). I am not familiar with any of the locales he writes of, yet the book seems very familiar to me. I don't know why, perhaps it's the state of mind of some of the characters? I think maybe I'll know by story's end, or not. I don't really care- I'm just glad I've found something I like in the modern world.

Dang I just finished part one today in my re-read - I'm going to need a longer commute to catch up to you.

Yeah, I'm reading magazines again instead of reading my book. Fits and starts. Fits and starts.

I need to start this. It's been sitting on the corner of my desk for the last week.

I finished, I hope we discuss it before I forget.

I started out blazing fast, slowed down a little in the last week. I'm about 2/3 through, and loving it.

I'm about halfway through and really enjoying it. It's definately a book I never would have picked up on my own.

I agree. I wouldn't have known about it. It was rough for me in the beginning, but then it smoothed out. I'm not sure if the translation got better, or I became more accustomed to it. Lots of stories inside of stories.

I finished this yesterday. I need a few days to digest it, but mostly I'm left with questions and no answers. The story started to disintegrate a bit for me around page 400 because there were so many loose ends. They tied together so quickly that I need to sort it out a bit. Kudos to Murakami for writing an ending that I actually like. That's rare for me.

I'm about 200 pages in on the re-read and have been contemplating the following:

Dread - go ahead and discuss, just use spoiler tags.

Finished! I really enjoyed this for multiple reasons.

1. Far different style from anything else I've read. I have no clue what is due to translation, what is Japanese style, and what is Murakami himself, but still, very intriguing from a style standpoint. This isn't to say I loved every moment of the style, but it definitely made me pay attention.

2. Characters. Solid, filled-in characters that react as they should (within such a crazy universe, but still). So many people and all of them real to me, no matter how wacky.

3. Settings. I can see the house with the dead end alley behind it, I can see Honda's hut, I can even see the wig factory. All places in an alien culture to me, but so skillfully drawn that I felt present.

Let's drop the number format.

It's turned into a bit of a slog for me. Of what I've read so far and I'm just now to the part where



I'm opposite CP. I thought Book 1 was the most interesting with only a slight drop off once Kumiko disappeared. However, since



I've only been able to read a few pages at a time and I seem to have lost most of my interest.

I found it helped to read more that a few pages at a time to get the momentum going.

I just got it over the weekend. Is it too late to start?

It's never too late.

I'm in the 300's now - so about half way through so go ahead and pick it up Steph - either you'll get sucked into the groove with us here - or you'll find it tiresome and can abandon when the discussion dies down.

I'm still working on it but I have found that it's taking me much longer to read than usual. I don't know if it's the style or what. I read very quickly usually and it seems that it's just taking me longer per page than other books. Perhaps because there's a lot going on and I need to pay more attention?

It's kind of a chicken and the egg thing. I only read a few pages because I quickly grow bored with it (whereas I read Book 1 in pretty much a single sitting) so without the momentum I can't easily read more than a few pages and forcing it will either reclaim the momentum or increase the boredom.

Well here's another musing at page 333

I'm on page 530, btw. The finish line is in sight.

It was in the 300s when I had this reaction to the book (cross-posted from LJ):

Then, somewhere between pages 300 and 400, it began to feel like something I didn’t even know I had, a giant knot on the inside of my body that holds everything together, loosened up a bit, and hidden parts began to free-flow inside of me. Like the book’s unfolding story, something in me was being unwrapped and took in fresh air for the first time ever. It feels like I’m receiving much needed CPR and these internal experiences, given life anew, are walking about on colt legs. Or maybe it’s more like your subconscious solving a problem you’ve been having while you sleep. I cannot put into words exactly what is happening. I can’t even explain what exactly, in the book, triggered such a release. It’s as though the book is speaking directly to my subconscious and things are being sorted out without my having to put in the effort.

I've experienced the feeling of my stuffing being ripped out and put back inside of me, like I’m some kind of living taxidermy.

This feels like more like a fisherman has untied an old unreliable knot and is now fashioning something stronger and more flexible out of the same material. Meanwhile, something within the knot that was being contained is now running wild. Whatever this is, it's comprised of helium. I seem to be floating.

I seem to internaliz more than process the themes in this book. I react more by feeling than intellectualizing. It's why it's been so hard for me to discuss the book's specifics, I think.

I'm right behind Chris in my re-read but I am noticing a lot of connections that I did not notice the first time. Although, I am afraid of trying to make things a lot more concrete than they are meant to be (interesting reaction from me since I am one that enjoys ambiguity).

There are many many references to the "other" world that have happened throughout the book so far.



Of course, this all happens before the blur of what happens in the well.

The first reference to a well happend much earlier on in the book than I recall and I only would have noticed this on a second read.

The man with no face?

I don't think you're meant to separate them. It was a very effective parallel.



I guess I thought that was supposed to be his brother in-law. I'll have to reread some of this myself!

I don't have any idea if my own thoughts are based in any sort of reality, but I'm ok with that. ;)

Here's where I had the thoughts about the man with no face:

And to combine Lisa nad my last posts - aren't they yin and Yang - when one feels good the other bad, etc.? I know there's a quote in there about that and it seems they cannot coexist in the same world.

Ok- I won't make the deadline- but I put a reserve on it at the library- should get it this weekend or sooner.

I'll watch closer for the next one-

As did I.

I didn't read this book all that long ago but I've read about five since, so I'm already forgetting important details.

I've read so many of his books now, that I find myself getting the characters and events somewhat confused. There are definitely certain themes and "characters" that appear on many of his books. There's usually a cat or 2 as well. Of course, I'm rather fond of cats myself. ;)

Me too. I need to reread it and I just read it!

This is the second Murakami book I've discussed with others (other than Chris) and I find that his stories are so very rich and textured that there are literally thousands of things that can be discussed. Toru, on the surface, seems like such a passive character, but the surrounding story is so complex and layered it makes for such wonderful storytelling and great discussion.

I wouldn't call him passive. Just open to suggestion. Unlike so many other stories, he actually listens to the advice of others. Too many stories rely on people ignoring the obvious, or good advice to create conflict. Agreability does not necessarily equate to passive.

Page 362

Ok, finished it today. I have to spend a bit of time processing it but I absolutely loved the first part and, and first consideration anyway, found the last act pretty lame (from the appearance of Nutmeg on). Kind of like a weaker Stephen King novel.

Once again proving that Alex and I are the inverse of each other most of the time.

When do we get to stop talking in spoiler tags?

I was browsing the reader reviews of the book at Amazone to try and help me put my thoughts in order and came across this review that might be of interest. A quick search didn't turn up any other mentions of this so I don't know if it is accurate but thought the people more familiar with Murakami may have heard about it.

Link, don't know if it will work.

Didn't search hard enough. Here is an email exchange between Jay Rubin and some other people (the whole thing is interesting but I linked to relevant email).

Knopf did require a cut of about 25,000 words for the hardcover edition which has been carried over into the later editions. Murakami suggested a certain number of small changes but overall it was done by Rubin. Interestingly, for the Japanese paperback version Murakami included the small excisions he recommended to Rubin (but not the big ones made by Rubin) so in Japan the hardcover and paperback versions are a bit different.

To further amend my remarks above the WWII stuff, which is mostly in the final act is incredible and within the final 15 pages there is a page and a half that is the best writing I've read in a very long time. As a technical matter of writing the last act of the book is just as good -- and at times better -- than the first part but by then I no longer much cared about the larger story being told.

I thought we covered that early on with the wikipedia entry here. But that may have been confined to a discussionI had in another Murakami board. Those who know assure me the changes are not that dramatic and were all done with the approval and oversite of Murakami. (also the cuts are supposedly not as drastic as the publisher requested). Still it sucks and I'd rather have the complete work for my reading - but until I learn Japanese it'll have to do.

Nevah!

Welcome to Spoiler Tag Hell. A cat will be along shortly to show you to your room.

I'm assuming at the spoiler tags will be dropped at the end of this week, which will make a full 4 weeks.

I feel at a bit of a disadvantage in that this is the first Murukami book I've read, but I am impressed enough to be okay with that. Better than okay. Sometimes, it seems like everything has already been said, done, exploited to death and there is nothing new in lit. I'm very happy to have (hopefully) discovered a 'new' author who makes me want to really read again, like I used to when I was in high school and college. I definitely plan on reading more of his works.

Great observation!

I finished Book 2 last night and have been looking back for a conversation netween Toru and May (or maybe it was Creta) about hate. She(?) says something about hate being something that is not separated from you, it is connected to you and that, when you lash out in hatred at someone, you are lashing out at yourself. However, I can't find this passage anywhere.

What brought it up to me was the dream of the man with the guitar case.

Okay I'm done. And since it's officially 4 weeks, shall we dispense with spoiler tags?

Regarding his passiveness, I'll concede that he's passive. But not in a "Oh well, what can I do?" kind of way. He never gives up on anything. It's more that he sits, fully analyzes a situation, and comes to the conclusion that the best course of action is inaction. He may not be doing much, but he does just enough to affect the flow of how things happen to him. He knows he can't change the course of the river, but if he puts a rock in the right place, it will alter the currents enough to suit his needs.

I don't know that I suspected that the "give me 10 minutes" woman was a manifestation of Kumiko, but I did suspect very early on that she was part of some sort of dream world. At least once, Toru had soemone in the house (Creta, if memory serves) when the phone rang. He let it ring, but Creta gave no indication of having heard it.

There are some very interesting simliarities between this and Hardboiled Wonderland. Certain particulars and parallels that cropped up in both. Definitely makes me want to read another to see if the trend continues.

For me, the key to Toru's behavior (in the last half of the book) is summarized in one sentence from when his uncle visits after learning of Kumiko's disappearance:

While this immediately gives rise to him sitting and watching faces in Shinjuku, it also is what he does for the rest of the book. He moves along with the forces in his life and just watches. He spends a couple months going down to the bottom of the well every day and just seeing what happens.

And during this time nothing new is really revealed to him or the reader about what is going on and yet through this process, when the moment of truth comes he has come to understand exactly what is going on and does what is necessary.


Another part that intrigues is from Kumiko's computer conversation with Toru.

I find the sentence interesting but does anything in the book really bear this out. Every instance of life changes I can find in the book happen with a sudden change of direction rather than a gradual one. Events so orbit each other exerting a gradual gravitational pull but rather carom about immediately and drastically changing things.

May has her motorcycle accident that puts her on one path and then her interacting with Toru in the well shifts her off into another direction.

Lt. Mamiya's life is completely changed in a single incident.

Creta lives live one way and then is knocked 90-degrees off with her suicide attempt and then again with her defilement by Noboru Wataya.

Nutmeg's life shifted with the brutal murder of her husband. Cinnamon after his encounter with the wind-up bird.

Yeah, I kinda scratched my head over that too. Of course, it could just be a case of, well, just because someone makes an overreaching generalization about life, doesn't mean it's true. Even in a book.

Or, maybe the missing chapters tie it all together. When can we expect Lani to be finished translating them for us?

That's true, certainly. But Murakami emphasizes the sentence, repeating it several times over a few pages. So obviously it has some significance but I'm not sure what he sees it being, particularly since nothing gradual ever happens in the book other than Toru's understanding at the bottom of the well.

I finished over the weekend and, I have to say that upon second reading, things seem to come together for me in many more ways. It may be because I have read muchmore Murakami and he explores similar themes in other books, but I see a cohesiveness in this book I didn't see before.

I have a few primary thoughts that have been surfacing and I thought I'd pose them as question here to discuss. I will finish formulating my own thoughts on these subjects and write something a bit later. But, for now, I want to see if you all have any thoughts on these questions.

What is the Wind Up Bird? What is it's meaning in the novel?

What is the significance of water in the book?

Discuss the layers of the characters in the book. There seems to be several parts that make up each character; the "worldly" identity and the "other", unconscious, or "core" identity.
___________________________________

I have to say that I am convinced that the lady on the phone and the person in the hotel room are Komiko - they are just the unconscious part of Komike that Toru doesn't recognize because he is only familiar with the worldly identity of Komiko. That was something that didn't gel with me the first time - but seems so obvious now.

Every character either experiences or speak of the "other" identity in the book. May talks about the mass inside, Creta sees her core when she is defiles by Norobu, Toru learns to tap into the unconscious world by visiting the well. Miyama experiences the "other" while in the well but can't grasp it, Cinnamon has cyberspace as his "other", Nutmeg exxperiences the other while on the ship. Norubu is the only character that has no "other" side revealed.

I read an essay about the book that explores this concept a bit further and suggests that Norubu was Toru's "other" but described it as a "nostalgic image". I will find that description and post it here. It is a difficult explaination but it seemed to make sense when I read it.

This book is so rich and complex that, I could spend hours thinking and discussing it. There are a thousand angles to approach it from and I wish we had the benefit of a face to face discussion.

Is not Norubu's "other" somewhat revealed in that Toru apparently beat him to death on the other side.

I wonder whether Norubu defiled Creta in our world or the "other" world. The parallels between Creta's pre-defilement (but post-suicidal) prostitution and Kumiko's pre-disappearance promiscuity seem strong.

I also feel a connection between Boris the Manskinner and Norubu and wonder if they might be the same malignant force. When Lt. Mamiya is unable to shoot Boris what did this imply?

Absolutely!

I will dig up the piece on nostalgic image when I get back.

Doesn't the book come right out and say this? My copy is at the library, so I can't verify it.

I was thinking about the "other" world and how unsubstantial it seemed. Often in stories when you have an other world it is more developed and understood. There's no full explanation in this book for the other world and it's much more dreamlike and vague.

I can't say that I like this idea as much as other concepts in the book. It leads me to feel unsatisifed with it. It seems almost lazy to me in retrospect, as if the whole concept could be described in one sentence: "There's this other world, and it's like a hotel, but you don't see faces, and Kumiko is represented by the woman in the bed, and the other people are just kinda there." It felt weak after the length of build-up, even though it does bring about an end to the story.

Yeah, that's what I think.

I think he becomes convinced that it is Komiko, as she can use the Komiko voice that he recognizes, but I don''t think it is obviously Komiko - unless you apply the concept or "other identy" to the book.


As far as the duel identities, this is a concept that Murakami uses over and over in his fiction. There is always the abstract concept of deality that is present in his characters but, often, there is a physical manifestation of this duality as well. For me as a reader, it makes for very complex and interesting characters with the added touch of "magical realism" that I personally love in fiction (Garcia Marquez, Allende, Kundera, Rushde, Borges - all favorites). Both parts of a characters identity are needed for an understanding of each character, and Murakami does a great job of exploring thise parts of each of his characters - although it is certainly not overt. I think, as readers, we know asmuch about both Toru's and Komiko's "other" side by the end of the book as we do about their worldly identity.

I think most human being with any desire to be thoughtful about their own identity wants to know more about the "core" of himself. Everyone can see what sort of face we put forth, physically, and others can oftentimes see the other "something" that is internal by a strong driving force, but we often cannot see this in ourselves. I am fascinated by Murakami's take on each characters search for their "whole" identity - the real world version and the internal core identity.


I've been thinking about the water elements and the use of the word "flow" throughout the book. Malta Kano comes into Toru's house early on and checks the water to see if there is a problem with flor. Throughout the book, there are water/flow references. They culminate and end after Toru beats and kills his "evil identity (Norubu Wataya) and the well begins filling up with water. At that point, the healthy "flow" of his life is restored once the blockage is removed. I know there are hundreds of such analogies within the book and I can tie this into the concept of the wind Up Bird as a representative of the flow of time. This will take further explaination on my part, but I am, still formulating this concept.

Toru is also extremely isolated and completely the nexus of the characters in the book. Other than one session where both Norubu and Malta are present and the dual character of Cinnamon and Nutmeg, no person in the book with whom Toru interacts ever interacts with another person.

May never interacts with Kumiko never interacts with Creta never interacts with Cinnamon/Nutmeg never interacts with Lt. Miyami, and so on. Past interactions are mentioned but never observed directly.

No character in the story could, if questioned, directly confirm the existence of any other character.

Which raises for me the possibility that none of the events described really happened. That it is all just the metaphorical coping of a man who has learned his wife was unfaithful and waiting to see how they cope with that.

But that's most likely going to far.

Interesting line of thought. It beings to mind the several references to imagination that are brought up in the third part - one is in reference to Mayama and Boris the Manskinner and their relationship, the other is between Toru and the "other" Kumiko in their final encounter in room 208. Oh, to have a searchable copy of the book.

Early on, having had the same lament for M. Bovary, I began taking careful notes of things that caught my interest. Unfortunately 1) it slowed my reading down, so I abandoned it and 2) I've already loaned my copy out, so if I just wrote down a page reference and not a full quote, I'm out of luck.

That being said, here are a few bits I wrote down. Nothing particularly enlightening in terms of digesting the whole book, I'm more drawn to little bits of observational wisdom:

* I found very vivid and familiar the description in chapter 2 of the ettiquette of cooking dinner and waiting before eating until your spouse comes home, even if they are late. You know you're not required to wait, but you do anyway. Of course, that was immediately followed by obvious clues that she was cheating on him, so it was also quite heartbreaking.

* I reference page 33, in chapter 3. He described the torture of being interupted during some long internal train of thought, and never being able to figure out what it was that you were thinking about. I HATE that.

* "If the Dali Lama were on his death bed and the jazz musician Eric Dolphy were to try to explain to him the importance of changing one's engine oil in accordance with changes in the sound of the bass clarinet, that exchange might have been a touch more worthwhile and effective than my conversations with Noboru Wataya." Ha!!! Freaking love that.

*Book 2, Chapter 10 (page 258), May posits that high concepts only exist because death exists. Without death, we'd have no urgency, and no reason to care what life's all about. There's always be time for that later.

* While Mayama was in the well, he asks, "What's the essential difference between 11 hours and 23 hours?"

Like I said, nothing earth shattering, but the two Murakami books I've read are rife with those little gems that make me pause and appreciate his insight.

Eh, that's only selections. "No references to imagination found".

teeheehee. No imagination found.

The word "imagination" appears on pages 63, 156, 268, 374, 405, 471, 472, 552, 555, 560, 562, 578, 579, 580, 584, 588.

The instances surrouding page 579 are the ones in the coversation between Toru and the other Kumiko.

Thanks. I'm not even sure I'm on to anything with this train of thought.

I thought (in retrospect, of course) that maybe only someone with blood ties to Boris/Norubu could kill him/them. This occured to me when alternate universe Toru fails to kill alternate universe Norubu and Komiko is forced to pull the plug on her brother.

Then again, I also considered that Boris the Manskinner knew Lt. Mamiya was not capable of killing another person in cold blood and Lt. Mamiya missed on purpose. But it sure felt like something prevented those bullets from hitting Boris.

It sure lends creadance to the Noboru as Toru's other theory, assuming you accept the Toru:Mayama::Noboru::Boris analogy. i.e., if Boris is Mayama's other, than he falls under the same prophecy as Mayama, namely that he would not die on that continent.

I really like the Noboru as Toru's other theory. He does mention quite a few times that they are exact opposites and that the other doesn't even exist in each own's world.

It also lends credence to Alex's theory of none of it happening. If Noboru is Toru's other, he probably isn't even a politician at all, or real for that matter. Malta and Noboru met, but if they are both fake it doesn't matter.

Perhaps, but I get this as a real possibility too, that all (or much) of this is a product of Toru's dream world and thus all the characters are really facets of Toru.

What I picked up in my second reading was the concept of "imagination." Boris warns of people using it to ill consequences in the camp, and you have to wonder how much is going on in Toru's imagination and possibly preventing him from acting in a decisive fashion. I was also more intrigued by Cinnamon's "Chronicle" - Toru speculates that much is imaginary since Cinnamon nor Nutmeg actually experienced it and rather obejct of thier current life made their way into a sort of fictional mythology (But I love the concept of creating one's own personal mythology), I wonder if this is comments somewhat on our own benign ways of reinventing our pasts?

Which leads me to think about Murakami dealing with Japanese War attrocities, which were very real horrors and hardly the product of imagination. This struck me very differently than say post-war German writing which is very heavy handed and guilt laden about dealing with the events of that hemisphere.

I'm also intrigued by the running theme of "prostitution" Creta, a prostitute of the mind and one-time flesh, Nutmeg and Toru essentailly prostituing their own psychic abilities (Toru even compares what he does with Creta). And even the conclusion Komiko's confession of being with many men, sounds more like a prostitute than her out having a good time.

On the other end of the spectrum is May, all sexual tension, but remaining virginal and in some sense being Toru's savior/confessor at the bottom of the well, and she provides solace at the books end. As to why Toru never got her letters - May herslef in her last letter confessed she addressed the notes "vaguely" so perhaps these are letters written never intended to be read, though the last one expresses some regret for that. From May's perspective, it may have been to protect her from being vulnerable confessing her thoughts in her new life.

I could go on and on, but I'll stop now and read some more.

I love all of these, especailly the one I bolded - been one of my philosophical precepts for ages, so it made me smile when I read it again.

And another thing - this comment caught my attention because I feel exactly opposite:

Unlike a Tolkien or Rowlings, I don't think Murakami set out to create an "other" world with complex rules, histories, and mythologies - rather it is this vague other that remains almost erily ambiguous - there are no rules to pin things on, you just have to ride with the flow of experiences as Toru does and draw conclusions from your intuition rather than your intellect. I loved that aspect of the book, but I can easily see how someone else might not.

Adding more to my above comment - I think the ambiguity is a great foil to Toru's insistance to keep things "concrete." he himself is struggling with where reality ends and the other world begins. He gives people concrete names, becasue the people themselves alone are perhaps to ethereal. In the end it may well be Toru's attempt to make sense of Komiko's infidelity, and make concrete his own ambgiguous feelings.

I love the ambiguity in Murikami's writing, but I find I prefer things less spelled out. I think that is why I've been thinking quite a bit about the various passages about imagination. He requires much more use of the readers' own imagination to try and fit things together and, something they just don't fit. I sort of like this ambigious aspect. I find it much more interesting as a reader than when things are spelled out to me with many facts. When I list many of my favorite writers, many of them have at least some aspect of ambiguity.