10 years later....
 

Suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey murder arrested in Thailand.

The only thought that comes to mind is holy sh*t.

Yeah and poor Patsy Ramsey did not live to see it happen.

Does he manage a Club Libby Lu?

But she knew about it.

Well then, too bad she didn't live long enough to see the arrest headlines splashed all over the internets.

Well that is a mercy that I hope let her rest peacefully.

Wait, WTFFFFFF???

(First of all, I didn't even know Patsy Ramsey was dead ... and I'm too frelling tired right now to delve into why this arrest may actually have something legitimate to do with this murder)

Apparently the guy lived in Petaluma so the local news is all over this.

It seems the guy sent some emails that talked about the Jon Benet Ramsey murder that included details withheld by the police and never made public.

Apparently he wasn't arrested in Bangkok for behavior in Bangkok but on an extradition warrant after he failed to appear in a Petaluma court for child pornography charges.

Patsy Ramsey died of cancer earlier this year. According to report they have been tracking this guy long enough that the Ramseys were aware of the suspect and evidence against him from before she died.

Wow.

The guy has confessed.

He's creepy looking!

I'm confused as to why it took 10 years for something to happen.

I expect it's because the Boulder police botched the investigation and it took 10 Years for this guys conscience to get to him.

I does make this a doubly sad case. I know that I'm on record with a lot of other people thinking that the parents were involved, not with the murder but with protecting the killer (ie it was one of their other kids). So to have your daughter killed and then have people think you were involved... :(

Here's hoping the guy is a DNA match, because if the Thai police didn't mirandize him, that confession is out.

Too much Law and Order makes me think the guy is giving up way too much too easily. However, he apparently knew details of the scene that were not public, so who knows.

I have to admit, my first thought was: "This guy is facing time in a Thai prison. He will do or say anything to be extradited to the US."

Closure would be good. Truth would be better.

Interesting concept. I did hear today that he had "investigated" this crime for a college paper, even interviewed one of the grandparents. He could have learned the unpublished details of the crime that way. He was also expecting to get charged with second degree (involuntary) manslaughter. Now that's he's up for the death penalty with first degree (CO does have the death penalty) perhaps MousePod is right and he will recant.

Now his ex is saying that he was with her at the time of the murder. What the heck is going on here...?

Oh, you were expecting this case to get wrapped up in a tight little bow?



It's a riddle wrapped up in an enigma.

CNN is now reporting that "sources say" there is a DNA link with Mr. Karr.

So if his ex says she was with him and evidence shows he was at the Ramsey's then perhaps she should be prosecuted along with him?

I think I just found my new sig line

He wasn't facing time in a Thai prison (so far as I can tell). He was only arrested because of U.S. warrants out on him.

He was arrested in California in 2001 for possession of child pornography and then fled after being released on bail. He hadn't been seen since (and his family thought he was dead). When authorities tracked him to Thailand the Thai police put him under surveillance and he was arrested. But not for anything he did in Thailand.

What's vaguely interesting to me is that news stories quote American police saying he has a record of several sexual assaults in the South. At the time of his 2001 arrest he was working at a Catholic girls school in San Francisco. I wonder if he lied or if they didn't do a proper background check.

Also, can you imagine the grilling every girl at that school at that time is getting from the parents today?

Sigh. I so wish I cared more about this case. It has the makings of a bad TV movie all over it. I must be a hardened, unsympathetic individual.

Been there done that. TV movie, Law & Order... let's not let them waste any more air time on fictionalizing this case.

I lived in Colorado at the time of the event, and though I feel great sympathy for their loss, and elation at a possible answer, I'm done with this.

Last I recall, everyone was pretty much placing the blame on the parents. That seems to have changed...

I wonder how much the "dress your child up as a tart" disgust had to do with the parental blame.

For that factor alone, I felt the parents were guilty of child abuse or some other charge that would require painful punishment.

Every time I see pix and video of Jon Bonet, it makes me ill.

If I had a kid, she wouldn't be dressing like that at that age, I tell you what. No makeup until 40.

C'mon GC; be realistic. I think 35 is a safe age for girls to start wearing makeup.

Okay. 35.

If you are made uneasy by the child pageant industry I recommend (again) seeing Little Miss Sunshine. It completely and perfectly skewers it.

I was channel surfing the other night and ended up watching about 20 minutes of an episode of Dr. Phil about it. The perspectives of the mothers were interesting. And in a very strong way seemed the gender flip side of the father who pushes his son to excel at sports.

There was something on Oprah yesterday about this subject as well. A 3 year old kid who tells her mother she hates her for not letting her wear makeup. So what does mother do? Let her wear makeup.

As someone who is VERY pained by our inability (it would seem - no official diagnosis) to have children, it is infuriating to see how some people treat their children.

My daughter has been tarted up for dance recitals.

Comments?

No? When you become a parent you realize that you were a fool for thinking you could judge others for their parenting.

I am baffled by the "facts" of the case-been a while since I looked at it too closely even though I live out here in CO.

Did you ever see the HBO America Undercover documentary "Living Dolls: The Making of a Child Beauty Queen?" Here's a newspaper article about it.

It was a rather disturbing look at the child pageant industry.

The Pop Warner cheerleaders have begun to practice on the fields near where I play soccer. I find preteens performing sexed up cheer routines to be inappropriate.

Well, if your daughter was tarted up like the girl (8 years old!) in this screenshot from the Dr. Phil show, I don't so much have a comment as a question:



Why do you want your daughter to be a sex object?

Hmmm-

Confession says he drugged Jon Benet- autopsy showed no drugs

There is another link saying this could be a hoax confession- site is down.

No Alex- my daughter was not tarted up like that. Stage makeup- hair in a pony tail. My point is, you can't judge by such things without knowing more.

I don't like Libby Lu (nor does my daughter) and I don't have any plans to make her a beauty queen-but I do let her wear make up on special occasions.

But you kinda proved my point......that's all.

And nobody hear has judged letting a child wear make-up.

And I haven't judged any parenting. I asked a question. Without a doubt the parents of the girls in thise elite child pageants are allowing the sexualization of their child. My judgment would depend on the answer as to why.

I have also judged an industry. I find the idea of gathering 8-year-olds to pick the prettiest one to be asinine, independent of what it may say about individual parents. Especially if the method of picking the prettiest one is to first completely alter the appearance of the 8-year-olds in question so that they look like 20-year-olds. Hair, eyelashes, teeth, and tan on that girl in those pictures are all fake. Why not go all the way and pad the breasts?

Carl Lewis was on The Best Damned Sports Show Period! the other night and it was mentioned he would be judging the Miss Teen USA Pageant. The awkwardness of this endeavor was make clear. When asked what he would be looking for he almost blushed and tried to protest that there was nothing prurient about it. He said he didn't really know the criteria but that he had been told to look for symmetry but he was confused since girls that age are supposed to have "symmetry." I just found it immorative. The awkwardness of five guys talking about judging the looks of teenagers (who, at least biologically, actually are sexualized).

Wrong- they had a discussion just above about the age of letting girls wear make up.


Did not say you did.

But other people did....and that was what I responded to. You just rounded it out.

Actually, the comment seemed more about capitulating to a 3 year old throwing a demanding tantrum. The only other reference to makeup and age was clearly sarcasm.

I see a big difference between little girls wearing make-up for a dance recital or starring in a play vs. getting "tarted up" (which involves a lot more than just make-up) for a pre-pubescent beauty pageant. I have no problems with the former but the latter creeps me out.

so?

I just asked a question based on some of the comments above.

I agree. But some people make judgements based on what they see, rather than what is real.

Legal analyst says confession could be hoax

When a debate ensues (for all of three posts) about whether a "girl" should be allowed to wear makeup at 35 or 40, I would hope the sarcasm is apparent.

There is a far cry from allowing a girl to wear makeup and a ponytail for a dance recital and allowing what is seen in the highly publicized photos of Jon Bonet or the pix posted by Alex above. What I see in the pagent shots/footage of 4-8 year olds (a la Jon Bonet, et. al.) is (IMHO) abhorrent and negligent behavior on the part of the parents. I DO judge them without pause.

A little makeup and a ponytail in a dance recital does NOT fall into the same catagory and I really am ambivalent about it.

It was- same as when my dad told me I could not date til I was 35.

....and some people do not. I just put it out there as an example.

I think it depends. As someone who was heavily involved in the competitive dance world as a teenager I think it can go one of two ways. You can go to a studio where they wear makeup for performances (which is a must with the wash out lights on stage), but the costumes cover more than a bikini would and the dances are age appropriate. Age appropriate meaning they don't have ten year olds doing crotch shots and dancing to songs about hookers. In my experience, you can't become as advanced a dancer at those studios (at least not out here), because the better teachers know how the fiercely competitive dance world works and what it takes to win, but it can be found.

My studio was the opposite. Little girls in skimpy costumes dancing to songs about sex and prostitutes. But the teacher was very talented and the studio won a lot of competitions. It also had the added bonus of being one of the few studios that didn't start telling girls that they were fat at the age seven. The girls were all extremely nice and so were most of the parents. Very few "stage moms." They grew up very very fast though. Very fast. These girls acted like teenagers by the time they were eight. And with 12+ hours of dancing a week from the time they were five or six, I guess I don't blame them. Not for my kid, but I didn't see any abuse going on. Outside of competition they dressed like normal kids.

Stage moms are possibly my biggest dislike. I've seen moms, berate, shame, and even hit their kids for messing up a routine. What are they thinking? When does a kid get to be a kid?

And yes, I do judge child beauty pageants pretty harshly. I think it is nothing short of robbing your daughter of her childhood and putting her on display like a demented knick knack. But perhaps there are those cases where the child begs to be in a pageant. So what? I think as a parent it is their job to figure out what need a little girl is trying fill. The desire to compete? Put her in sports! Wants to get dressed up? Go to club build a whore. (Or better yet, go to one of the many Victorian tea houses that are cropping up everywhere for little girls). Socialization? Join Scouts, or have slumber party, or something. As a parent it is their job to look out for those little girls best interests. I can't fathom a single reason why putting your child on display like a sex object could ever be in their best interest.

And that guy is creepy whether or not he murdered her.

Well said, Traci!

What pagents and dance performances have become at this point is time is something I would NEVER get my own child involved in - and I was heavily involved in them in my childhood. It was pretty bad then but what it has become is disgusting. I actually stopped inviting a certain child dance troup to perform at an annyal Youth Arts event I put on for 10 years because what they performed was not appropriate for a children's event.

Any parent who tarts up their child for a pagent or a pole dance performance needs to be investigated by CPS.

Totally agree. The issue with the 3 year old mentioned earlier wasn't that a 3 yeard old was wearing makeup. It was that a parent doesn't understand that they have the rigth, and the responsiblity, to say "no" to their child.

OMG! You mean parents can actually guide their children? Who woudda thunk?

Obviously, I'm not an expert on what is considered to be "sexy" on a females, but I have never heard of a ponytail being considered a sexy/sexual hairstyle. Am I missing something here?

No-

..but that was not my point.

So, what was your point?

Er, stage makeup isn't tarty. Garish and unsightly up close, but not tarty. Have dance classes changed since I was 18? We danced to Sing, Sing, Sing and In the Mood and Deep in the Heart of Texas and, so help me, the Mickey Mouse Club roll call and talent rodeo songs. Actually, most of our songs didn't have lyrics. And we were too concerned about flashing our fancy footwork to be all trampified. Is this all forms of dance now or just the sort of pop/hip-hop stuff?

Oh the memory lane is in full force now. We even danced to the Bugaboo song off the Mousercise LP! How random is that? Zomg now that will be stuck in my head all day!

Tarted up daughter notwithstanding, my heart breaks just as much for Patsy Ramsey as it would for June Cleaver if the Beaver was sexually assaulted and murdered by that little prick, Eddie Haskell.


Yesterday I thought that news of this arrest (and possible posthumous exoneration) coming after her death was just another cruel blow to a woman whose suffering goes far beyond my comprehension. Now I realize it's a blessing. Maybe this guy's the killer, maybe not. Either way, tongues are wagging again. She didn't need this and I'm grateful she's not around to see it.

I only brought it up because two different people mentioned it.

And yeah, SM, I'm a freak for a ponytail or hair pulled up under a ballcap.

No, I think what we (or at least I) was saying is, that no, a ponytail and stage makeup isn't anywhere near what pageant girls wear.

Pru- You were a tapper right? I haven't seen very much tap that includes things from my list above. Mostly Jazz. You were also in a small town though weren't you? Maybe that makes a difference?

I'm confused about this. Did the three year old want to wear makeup in the same way that a 12 or 13 year old wants to wear makeup? That's an odd desire for a child that age. Or did she want to play with makeup/dress up? That would be totally normal and something I would have no problem with a child doing in the house.

Well, it started out small, but wasn't any longer by the time I graduated. They had to move to larger digs at one point. The studio I went do had jazz, too, but it was different. And yeah, I was a tapper. tappetytaptap.

Sorry to serial post, but I had to agree with this. I don't think that she is to blame for her child's death at all. I may disagree with her parenting decisions, but to imply that she was at fault for putting her daughter on display would be the same as saying it's a rape victim's fault for wearing a short skirt.

That Oprah was scary. The point of the show was that these mothers have self-esteem issues and are transferring them to their daughters. There was also an anorexic mom who couldn't understand why her 4-year-old was obsessed with her weight. She would work out and only eat fruits and vegetables so she didn't get fat - a 4-year-old! The mom, who portions out exactly one cup of food for herself at each meal to ensure she doesn't overeat, would play a fat or skinny game in the car with the child. Hmmmm...I wonder why she is worried about her weight at age FOUR!

That's my vote. I saw a report today and he is saying too much, too easily. Also, they said she had no drugs in her system but that is one of his claims. Too weird - I think it is phony. He may have killed some other girl. I still think her mom was involved. That's about the age I stopped wearing it. ;)
I would assume that is an occasional special event, not a lifestyle. I am OK with that. :)

It's interesting how conservative some of us libs are with regards to letting our kids dress innappropriately. ;)

Tori has worn make-up for her dance recitals and for play; the only make-up she can wear outside the house is lip gloss. She's fine with that. Jon Benet was tarted up to an appalling degree. She had her hair lightened, nails done, make-up caked on and very innappropriate clothing during her 'competitions'. Poor kid- I wonder if she ever thought her natural look was pretty enough? I don't doubt she was very loved, but her parents mixed her up in a very questionable industry.

I remember when we were visiting DL and we had all met at To Jo's- afterwards, we were walking back to the Park and suddenly Darkbeer starting walking sideways and was very obviously shielding Tori's vision from the line of prostitots winding their way out of Libby Lu in parade formation. It was very sweet, and very much appreciated as the Girl was way into glitter back then and I doubt she could have stood being deprived of the LL experience.

No link yet-
This thing is just so odd. Thai police have been backing off statements they made (like the bit about him saying he picked her up from school...)and then this-

I just want a DNA link, and proof he was in CO at the time.

CNN is reporting no charges are to be filed against Karr.

WTF?

How can false statements to authorities and generally being a complete degenerate (if not a killer) lead to no charges being filed. That's just wrong.

Don't forget a failed DNA match.

Thus the "false statements".

Eh. People make false statements to the police all of the time, particularly with false confessions and charges are rarely persued. And we don't know exactly what he said to whom and under what conditions. Or what his apparent mental condition is.

If he didn't do it then just bounce him to California for the kiddie porn charges.

Hey, not a bad way to expidite his extradition. Who know how long he would have been stuck in a Thai jail otherwise.

At least he's off the streets. But you'd think with all of their previous screw ups they'd have some kind of solid evidence before all the hupplah.

Which I understand in his case are misdemeanor charges.

He's obviously a sick and disgusting man. Can't we kill him just to be safe?

I'm guessing thats what he wanted in the first place, hoping everyone would be so entrenched in their desire to fry someone for the original crime, they'd just off him with little hesitation.

Yes, a sick mind IMO....and yeah, likely (again, IMO) the planet would be safer in general without him in it, but thats just my very narrow opinion and rarely sufficient grounds for throwing him in a hole.

a pity really

Does anyone else wonder if he admitted to this to avoid being tried in Thailand? He knew it would have brought him back to the states and away from Thai justice.

He wasn't in Thai custody for anything he did in Thailand. He was there awaiting extradition back to California for the child porn misdemeanors. This did seemingly accelerate the extradition process, so that could have been a motivation, as I mentioned earlier. But that was mostly in jest as that seems a rather risky tack.

Ah. I thought he was in Thai custody for crimes committed in Thailand.

This just in: The police have lost the computer that they had seized in 2001 as evidence in the child pron case against Karr.

But they do have a back-up of the files (or so I heard on the news this morning).

The prosecutors have offered him a plea bargin: plead guilty to two of the charges and they drop the other three.

I read a quote that they said the "put everything down on paper."

Yup. And that doesn't lead me to believe they have particularly good backup data.