Is it bad that I agree with this?
 

Skinny Models Banned from Fashion Show

ok, maybe not the banning part, but that the fashion industry is partly (hugely?) to blame for the, as they put it "heroin chic" unhealthy, overly thin look that alot of youngsters are unwisely striving for.

I dont really see a problem with them trying to keep their future models from dying before they ever reach the runway.

You've got to start somewhere I suppose.

thoughts?

I think it rocks.

I agree too. Also why not desgin clothes that normal sized persons can actually fit in?

Because designing the clothes they have designed made them rich?

I thought "Heroin Chic" was already passé. I understand where they are coming from, but I'm not sure this will really do much - banning models below a certain BMI number. Seems as discriminatory as banning someone above a certain BMI number and I doubt anyone would agree to that.

Models almost by definition represent an ideal, but there are so many other places those ideals are represented. Should films be banned based on the size of the actors? How about athletes, teachers, or other role models?

Fashions reflect the times, I'm not so sure they create them.

true they represent an 'ideal' which will surely vary from person to person (surely not my personal ideal, but I digress), but rarely does anyone considered 'over X BMI number' do so intentionally...whereas a great many of those they're referring to go to great horridly unhealthy lengths to 'fit the designer ideal' for what amounts to a job. in order to curb this, I think those who support those designers have to indeed step up and say "uh...this isnt a good idea. lets change it" even if this particular method might not be the best idea.

but you make an excellent point. reversing descrimination doesnt make it a good thing in its own right.

I don't know. Numbers can get awfully big.

But seriously, model image is just one component of how fashion victimizes women or just plain makes them look stupid.

A few years back, young women were walking around the workplace on three and four inch flip flops that made stiletto heels look sensible.

And Brazilian bikini waxes. Who was the first joker who, about to have sex, recoiled, stroked his chin thoughtfully and said, "No, no, I cannot f*** this p****. It has not suffered enough." And why did women believe him?

Don't get me started on tattooes.

As much as I appreciate the appreciation of normal-looking people (you all know that's my MO) this was exactly the point I was going to make before you beat me to the punch!

I think it is safe to say that most (not all, but most) people over X BMI do so intentionally. They may not like that it is the result (or prefer it over choosing another BMI) of what they choose to do but it is still voluntary.

If someone wants to starve themselves and someone else thinks this makes a dress look best then I don't see why it is anybody else's place to interfere with that.

Since the goal is to require "healthy body images" I would assume that this implies a cap on BMI as well (though I doubt any designers were approaching it). I don't think turning away a BMI of 29 (or whatever the top of healthy is) because "girls emulate what they see and it would encourage them to put on weight to a level known to increase the chances of diabetes and heart disease" would fly very well.

Agreed. I've been in great shape, and I've been abysmal shape, and I know it takes hard work and diligence to accomplish both.

What about if a woman (or man) chooses to go after this look. Some people (myself included) PREFER it. My wife prefers it (on herself) but doesn't like the procedure,so she bought a machine to do it much less painfully. I would "trim" if she preferred, but she doesn't. If you don't like the look, then fine. But why should it be bad for everyone?

What is wrong with a tatoo if the person wants it? It is a personal choice.

Or maybe I am blowing this out of proportion. If so, I REALLY need to stop posting from work.

I dig tastefully done tats. I've seen them way overdone, but I've always been partial to well done skin art. Undoubtedly because my dad had so many...and yet, I have nada...yet anyway. :)

It has nothing to do with the visual asthetics. I simply don't like hair in my teeth.

Alex makes a fine point.

Hair in the teeth isn't so bad. It's that one hair that always manages to find its way to the very back of my tongue that I prefer to do without.

Only on LoT could a thread about weight restrictions on models turn into pubic hair in your teeth in 15 posts. :p

I know. I HATE having to go to the dentist for a haircut

Besides, I want to be able to see him down there.

Gotta love the urban dictionary.

Afro Bush

Lush, unruly, kinky pubic hair.

That afro bush had such thick underbrush and was so overgrown that I lost my wallet and car keys in it.

It's also a "personal choice" for a teenager to smoke or do drugs because her friends do them. Everyone in these fora question the outside forces that dictate and influence their so-called personal choices.

Now, maybe I'm just a crotchety old feminist, but I think that when society/fashion/etc. decides that all of a sudden women have to jump through new hoops, spend additional hours out of their week and money out of their pocket to do something new in order to be desirable to men, there's something wrong. Particularly when the something that is decided is something ludicrous: the aforementioned four-inch flip-flops, lowriders that have young women looking like my plumber and constantly hiking their pants up because they're really a little embarrassed by having their ass hang out, etc.

As for the waxing, I remember when all the pageant pictures of Jon-Benet came out and people were upset about how a six-year old was dolled up to look like a sexy adult. I'm not sure it's much healthier to say that grown women now have to look like six year-olds.

Did I mention thongs? Again, who was the joker who first said, "No, I won't f*** you unless you jam your underwear up your ass." Here I know whereof I speak: I've done the dance belt thing in dance classes and Shakespeare plays. Ick! Please don't say it's about panty lines; you can always tell when someone's wearing a thong. It's about women now having to say to men in order to be sexy, "Look, I'm thinking about my ass. My ass is now one layer of fabric closer to you." Women did not have to do this when I was younger; somehow they still managed to find men who would sleep with them.

Regarding tattooes, yes, it's a matter of personal taste. (Except when women are all getting lower back tattooes because everyone's doing it.) I like the human body. Every inch of it. My heart never fails to sink when I see a tattoo on a pretty woman or girl.

So is the feminist position one that women have no freedom but are compelled to do what pop culture dictates? I think I'd be insulted if the society I was in presumed me so powerless as to have to protect me from my weakness of wanting to be attractive to potential partners.

Haute coutere has discriminated against average and plus size men and women for years- where's the outcry there? When is the last time you saw a size 12 or higher on the catwalk, or gracing the pages of Vogue? What about older models? If event organizers feel that things have just gotten too extreme, it's their perogative to put restrictions- either way- on the models.

As for naturally gazelle-like models, they are few and far between. Most eventually admit to serious eating disorders, but not until they have aged out of the biz or quit because they wanted to develop a personal relationship with an In&Out burger.

Perhaps, but if they think it's going to change teen culture by doing so they're in for some dissappointment.

See post 21. I think you just answered your own question.

We're talking about the cultural programming (yes I said it) of young women here. Young women trying to make their way through the confusing and contrasting signals of hormones and hair and curves and wanting-to-do-it v. you are ugly if you have curves and hair, and you are a whore if you want to do it. Believe me when I say it's a lifelong fight against that crap. Of course we have freedom in the abstract but learning to use that freedom, in our culture, takes great, and mature, bravery. And it's an uphill battle, apparently, wherever one goes and whatever ones age is. :mad:

Oh, I got over being insulted about it long ago, but it's there whether I care or not. I do continue to care on behalf of the future partners of my son.
If he brings home a hairy curvy gal or boy (or the opposite!) that he truly loves than I figure I've done my job at running cultural interference. But cultural interference must be run. GRRRRR! And these stupid "ideals" burn my toast.

Actually, there have been a lot of teens (including here in Spokane) who have been campaigning against all the low-rise crap out there. Several department stores in our area have responded and we can finally find decent pants for our kids now. There are always going to be those who blindly follow whatever they are told looks good and is fashionable, but there are a lot of kids out there with a strong sense of self who serve to offset the others.

So maybe men don't really care as much as you say we do and women are doing it to themselves for no good reason.

Or maybe women are capable of coming to choices of aesthetics on their own, or sharing in the process, and aren't simply cowering in the face of men and the fashion industry defining sexy.

Of course, I may just be riled since you've essentially described my wife as a helpless victim of patriarchic oppression. Why you're so bothered by what she is doing under her clothes, I don't know.

Of course, since I too have tattoos, trimmed and removed pubic hair, and switched from tighty whities to forms of underwear I consider more attractive (as well as comfortable; my wife assures me she finds thongs much more comfortable but I could hardly care less what kind of underwear she wears) I would like to see banned the ultra-thin fashion models that have acted as a tool to sexually oppress me into conforming to the perverse male concept of beauty and sexiness.


I'm a victim.

No one said anything about victims here, Alex- and even if they were, you're not the demographic.

Thongs are fine, and everyone is entitled to their opinion as to the asthetic appeal of them. You wanna wear buttfloss, knock yourself out.

As the parent of a ten year old that couldn't find pants that didn't show parts of her anatomy that she really doesn't want to show, I can attest to the pressure that these kids are under.

Do you have a daughter, Alex? You haven't lived until your little eight year old declares they are going on a diet, because they are too fat and boys won't like them if they don't get skinny.

Now, post a pic of yourself in a thong, post-Brazilian wax, and I'll forget the above post ever happened. I'll also probably go blind, right?

You may be talking about 10 year old girls. But Strangler Lewis seems to be talking about all women, regardless of age (unless there are a lot of 10 year old girls getting tattoos and Brazilians) and being forced into decisions about what is sexy. Sounds like victims to me (though apparently tattoos are ok on ugly girls).

Thanks for insulting me as well. Can I assume that the sight of you mostly undressed is amazingly hideous as well?

As for your daughter, I would bet it was another girl that told her she needs to be skinny for boys to like her. Not a runway model or a man or even another young boy. Honestly, most men don't give a damn what women wear, particularly if they think it is going to be coming off.

As for the event organizers in this case, it is the government. I would like to think we can all agree it isn't a good thing for the government to start deciding what the acceptable range of appearance is before you can put yourself on display.

I'm waiting for "homeless chic" to come into style. Then I'd fit right in...
:D

Yes.

(By today's standards, anyway).

(And I was joking, but omitted the smilie because you are kind of touchy about those. I also kind of thought you'd get it. Having no idea what you look like, maybe you do need to post that pic.)
;)

I get that you meant it as a joke. I just don't see how a joke about someone being ugly isn't also rude. Even with a smiley.

I think the way these things go is that the men set the standards, the women bow to them, adopt them and perpetuate them. I very much doubt that a woman invented female genital mutilation, but it's clear that generations of women who have endured the process are involved in getting young girls ready for it.

I think the girl/woman dichotomy does not hold up. My criminal clients have mostly grown up in environments where, as youths, the wrong choice was essentially inevitable. It is a gross fiction to say that once such a person turns 18, the choices they make suddenly become rational and self-interested and free from the unwholesome influences of their youth.

Well, if we're going to be touchy here, Alex- don't make presumptions about my kid. She's hard of hearing and homeschooled, so it's unlikely she picked up the message from her friends. She watches tv and reads magazines, and she's not stupid.

Apologies for trying to make a joke- won't happen again.

I don't think you're ugly. You have great eyes and nice eyelashes. In fact, I like a guy with meat on their bones. Not that I'd want to sleep with you, I don't do straight guys... anymore... But you get my point.

If I was a breeder, I'd be in love with Julie (my bride friend in SF) she's my bizarro world soul mate.

Not that wenchybeth needs defending, but it was a joke. I think you've both known eachother long enough to joke in that way without it being offensive. I don't think either of you have it in you to officially hurt someone in that way.

My 2 cents with a touch of TMI.

As an adult, I like having the options of following what fashion trends I want and disgarding the rest. But, I'm 44 and I've been through the dorky unacceptable phase and have gotten to a point here I know my faults and assetts and can live with them. I also am not really concerned about impressing men. (Sure, it's nice when it happens, but it's not a motivator.)

I grew up as a coat hanger. I WAS model thin but that wasn't enough. I think the real problem is that most teens just find the grass is always greener with someone else's look. But, as an adult, I am happy I am not a coat hanger any more - except when certain fashions I want to wear need a coat hanger body.

As for tats, I love them when they are attractive. Tat boy on "Runway" has an awful tat. It highlights the fact that he doesn't have much of a chin - plus it's distracting. The only reason I haven't gotten a tat at this point in my life is that I can't make a permanent decision. ;)

Thongs ARE comfortable with some items of clothing just as granny panties work best with others. I have choices and, damnit, I'm going to use them.

Sometimes, there's more to life than sex.

Interesting thread...

I am not sure how I feel about the banning models thing. Making a big stink of it just reeks of publicity to me. Personally, I would prefer a greater (I'd say wider, but the pun would be too obvious) selection of models in terms of sizes, appearances, but it's not enough to make and break me.

As far as the other topics are concerned, I kind of see it both ways. And my personal views have grown out of having two parents who feel the world affects them in every way, removing choice and personal responsibility from the equation. I grew up when Kate Moss was popular, and I'm no skinny chick. Yeah, I had boyfriends, yeah I could get a guy to bed... It was never an issue that was based on my weight. It would have been an issue if I actually believed it was. But that's just me.

I could go on and say I have "not done" things out of someone else's wishes, but I've never done something because popular culture tells me it's what I want, and I've never done something to change myself at someone else's insistence.

On the other hand, I've made some choices about my hoo-ha that have nothing to do with anyone else's preferences. I've decided it just plain old feels better to be on the bare side of the road. Everything from the shower (and I'm not talking one of those fancy shower heads... just a straight up regular shower) to, dare I say it - masturbation, feels better. And HELLO! Bonus! No one has to choke on a pube if they... well, I think you get it.

It all started - literally - when I was just "trimming up" for wearing a bikini. I got kinda bored and "whisk." I didn't really like it at first, aesthetically. Kinda freaked me out. But you know what.. after a couple of days of my "normal routine" and after trying to grow it out again, I've just decided it's the way things are gonna be from now on. I've considered waxing, but at this point the expense kind of keeps me away... and the idea of waiting until I can wax again doesn't satisfy my impatience.

Now, I realize I have just said WAY too much, but I felt like I had to say it for all the people out there that do things because it's the way *they* like it, not because of someone else.

Again, I know it was a joke. And it was a rude one. But my feelings aren't hurt or anything. I was just pointing it out. But then I don't feel I know wendy at all. Certainly not well enough to start in with the "you so ugly" jokes.

Strangler Lewis, it must be sad to live in a world where women have so little involement in their own lives and decisions. I commend you on the courage and bravery of your underwear selection.

Oh, Alex... but you IS so ugly! (OK, I kid I kid! I have no clue!)

Oddly "Leave My Kitten All Alone" by The Beatles just came on my iPod. Hmmm...

I took a soc. psych class that focused on the fact that so many bahaviors that we take for granted are the result of social pressure. Try standing backwards in an elevator. Try standing in a pubilc place and do absolutely nothing. Try eating a utensil-required meal with your hands. You'll feel that pressure, whether someone's there or not. You'll feel like something is wrong.

Social pressure is real.

But I found myself thinking, "Umm, so what?" during that class a lot. Because none of this was news to me. I was under no illusion that there was some amazing practical reason that people stared at you funny if you were facing the back wall of an elevator. Big deal. It bugged the heck out of me that the professor never went to the next step, the step of, "Okay, we've identified our social programming, so what do we do about it."

It wasn't until a while later that it ocurred to me...what needs to be done about it? I came to the conclusion that the "solution" isn't to try to get rid of social pressure. That's ludicrous, it's what allows society to exist. Without it, without the ability we have of a species to NOT think about every single little act, we wouldn't function.

The key, as I see it, is simply awareness on an individual level. To create a culture devoid of negative social influence is an impossible goal, and fraknly one I don't even consider a good one because with the bad goes the good. Blandness would be the only alternative.

Instead, the solution, on a per-person basis, is to simply be aware. As long as you are cognizant of the fact that your choices, your likes and dislikes, are influenced by the culture and media around you, you stand a chance of taking control of it. There's no need to reject it if you understand it.

"I face forward in elevators because I'm supposed to," is different from "I face forward in elevators because I'd rather not have people staring at me, and I can see what floor I'm on." "I wear these designer clothes because other people do," is different from "I wear these designer clothes because they flatter me and improve my chances of positive social interaction."

If you're aware of the source of influences, you stand a chance of recognizing when it's better to ignore them.

Maybe it's because I'm not terribly hirsute, but the last thing I am concerned about is shaving/waxing/removing the hair from another part of my body. If I was an afro-bush woman, I may feel differently, but I see it now as another piece of up-keep I don't need to add to my life. My legs and armpits are enough to do. Add that to painting my toenails, keeping my fingernails filed, dying my hair and keeping sunscreen on my body and I'm done. Man, I've gotten lazy!

That's why I married an Asian* woman. It keeps someone in the house to paint my toenails and keep my fingernails looking good and do all my eyebrow maintenance and back shaving. I get to be lazy (I don't have to do anything but sit still and watch TV) and still be groomed.

And now that I've made an issue of it, no I'm not ugly. But I'm also not particularly attractive. I have very attractive eyes. Otherwise I am one of those people where there is nothing wrong with any of the individual parts but somehow it all comes together blandly.



*No, that isn't really why I married an Asian woman. The Asian collection just happened to be the first catalog I got in the mail.

OK, Alex... I know I mojo'd you... but that just cracked me up to the point that I'm getting stares at the computer lab.

As GD points out, I would not limit the phenomenon to women. However, this thread started out with a discussion of women and appearance standards. I still submit that 1) underwear up the ass v. underwear not up the ass, 2) ass hanging out the top v. ass not hanging out the top and 3) pubic hair v. no pubic hair are fashion shifts of rather cosmic proportions, and I am curious about the cultural moment that birthed them. Was it Pamela Anderson getting her a****** waxed? Something else? Should the progenitors be haled as liberating pioneers a la Kinsey? Or is somebody out there having a good laugh?

I totally agree. Only I'm too lazy to paint my toenails most of the time too.

You didn't express a curiosity (which I am all in favor of) you pronounced a conclusion (with which I disagree).

But I also disagree that the things you list are changes of "cosmic proportions." Bu then my wife has been doing the things you find so cosmic for more than 20 years so maybe I'm just used to it.

As for honest curiosity on origination. I posit:

1) Thong underwear: women found that thong underwear simply works better with certain kinds of clothes. Especially the kinds of clothes they wear when out partying and looking for a ****. Once they grew accustomed to wearing it, why go to the hassle of maintaining two sets of drawers?

2) Pubic shaving and trimming. I see a couple sources for this. First, as women became more involved in their own sexuality they were more interested in, and willing to, do things that didn't hide their interest in sex. Shaving and trimming requires, first of all, a willingness for your partner to know that you're thinking about that area. But there is also a male origination for it as well. When sex is personal most men don't really care what the groinal looks like so long as he gets to put his tinkle-thingy in it. However, with the growth of movie pornography this personal disinterest is lost and, frankly, when both the vaginary region and the penunitary regions involved have metric assloads of hair, it is difficult to see what it going on. So porn producers start to clarify the picture, so to speak. It gives men ideas, more and more women are watching porn as well so they get ideas. A new cultural acceptance of women experimenting with the pootytang areas has opened the door for trying it and a lot of people find out that for various reasons they like it. Just because a fully shaved pubis monstrosity has the same amount of hair as a six-year-old does not mean that someone likes it because of that. Maybe they like it despite that.

3) Ass hanging out vs. not haning out. I place this one at the feet of women more so than men. As women become increasingly willing to sexualize themselves it seems a reasonable byproduct. Just 30 years later than the tube top with did the same thing for the boobages region.

4) Tattoos. Tattoos are simply cool. Yes they can be done poorly or for bad reasons, but that is gender neutral. I don't see why it is any different or worse (though certainly more permanent) than lobal mutilation.

I prefer to remain coiffured. I have very sensitive follicles and I quite enjoy a scalp massage. I miss the hair when I'm bald (and I also don't like looking prepubescent.)

The bare/haired hoo-ha is clearly a personal preference, and nothing more.

Well, damn - this conversation has progressed way too far for me to chime in with my intended snarky post. But I will toss in that, if we fear the influence of fashion on our daughters we can always take a lesson from the islamists and require our women to wear Burkas and head scarves to protect them from our irrational masculine lusts.

is it too late to say Im sorry I brought it up? :rolleyes:

Yes, but look at the lively discussion you generated
;)

Moments like these, I find myeself envying your wife. As I've spent some time envying you her company, as well, I don't think there's anything wrong in saying so.

You think you're lazy? By comparison, I'm as groomed as a monkey.

:blush:

To quote € from another thread...when's the next party? :evil: ;)

Indeed... I guess that I just couldn't agree more with GD on it. Just because it's a 'societal shift' or whatever or however you might or might not look at it, what I disagree with is the assertion that one side or the other is 'wrong.' I don't go around toting what I said earlier... but I guess I wanted to say why I did it.

And for the record, I don't like thongs. I don't like the way the look on me. The feel, meh... doesn't bother me to wear them, but if they're unflattering, why would I?

I'd also like to add that I regard pointed and total rejection of "social norms" about the same as I regard total adherance to social norms. Either way, one is letting themselves be defined by those norms. I much prefer to take the middle road, i.e. take from social norms what works and is useful for me, and "rebel against them" when it works and is useful for me.

Indeed, I think of this as "developing your own style"

If you really are curious about such things (and really are a woman - I admit I'm not sure on that count) you should try these things. I used to decry every one of the things you've mentioned, as well as bras, nylons, heels (of any height), shaving legs, wearing skirts. What a pain in the ass it is to be a woman, I thought.

Slowly but surely my tomboy past has been stripped away (heh) and I'm fully on the other side of the fence now. I do not do these things because it is expected of me - everyone who knows me knows that I do what the hell I want - I do them because I enjoy it.

I wear a thong sometimes because it makes me feel sexy and flatters me better in certain outfits. I shave my nethers because I tried it once and - shock of shocks! - liked how it let me feel everything during sex. I've done waxing and I really wish I could afford to continue it but it's just too expensive. Believe me Strangler, there's NO WAY IN HELL I'd go through the bother of keeping that trimmed just because someone else prefers it that way.

You can add me to the list of people that is rather annoyed when someone tries to tell me that I'm only doing these things because of societal pressures. Like has been said above by others, I'm pretty lazy, and it takes a lot to motivate me to do anything, never mind things like this.

Conversely, here's an example - I'm not into manicures at all and personally think I'd look ludicrous in long nails. Does this mean I have a huge problem with other people doing their thing? Jeez, I'd seriously have to get over myself if I thought I could tell other people what to do with their fingernails. :rolleyes:

Low rise pants is an interesting case to me because it's just the latest in a long history of shockers. The miniskirt, tube top, Daisy Dukes, see-through blouses, go-go boots, stillettos, the bikini...eventually low rise jeans will either be humdrum or completely passe. I may as well start not caring now.

I understand about the struggle with kids and don't mean to trivialize that, but it's my feeling that EVERY generation has it's pressure to dress cool and the parents are always driven nuts by it.

If I were a woman, my name would probably be the Fabulous Moolah.

Yes and no. Every girl I've seen whose ass is hanging out of her pants, upon realizing that her ass is hanging out her pants and that someone is looking at it, has hiked her pants up and looked embarrassed. Whether it's hiking your pants up or endlessly tugging at your short short skirt, I don't see how feeling the need to wear something that makes you uneasy and vulnerable is a good thing.

As to the rest, thanks for the perspective.

SL is most definitely NOT a woman. (Well, I've never really experienced his manhood in full flower, but I have seen enough tobe pretty damned sure, ;)) Maybe Chris can post some pics. :evil:

I think what bothers me about "this" brand of feminism is that there seems to be a patronizing attitude that I, as a women, can't take care of myself. Actually, I make my choices based on what I feel like doing and not what is fashionable nor what men "require".

I was raised on the "don't wear red lipstick because people will think you're a whore" school of thought (and it wasn't a man saying that to me, it was a woman) That obviously went over well with me. I go out of the house 90% of the time wearing nothing BUT red lipstick. And, if someone wants to think I'm a whore, then I hope they are entertained by that thought.

Same goes for a thong. It's MY choice to wear one and not one that's made by a man. If I feel sexy in my choice of clothing than that's a good thing for ME. If a man happens to think I'm hot as well, then that's an added bonus, but not a driving factor. I LIKE being sexy when I want to. It's good for my own confidence, self esteme and (ohh la la) libido.

If there were no men in the world (heaven forbid) I would probably do exactly the same things I do now. I'd just make the lesbians suffer. ;)

PS: Low rise pants as fashion have come and gone through the years. Somewhere. there's a pic of be in white hip-hugger dittos.

I am at a loss. Probably for the best.

Then you're a better man than I am. I work out to stay (okay, these days, get) healthy and feel good about the way I look to myself and my wife. However, having generally accepted fitness as a goal, I also do it to avoid having to compare myself unfavorably to other men.

You're right. Undoubtedly the next trend will be bare breasted women in Fred Mertz pants with a prominent camel toe.

You men are never happy, are you? It's either hooha waxing, thong wearing, low-rise buttcrack flashing fashion, or burkas.*




*(J/K)


Personally, I really don't give a **** what people wear, but I also require that people not give a **** what I am wearing. I am not nor have I ever been a fashionista. I will say that it truly is hard to find age appropriate clothing for my kid, and all my friends with kids her age say the same.

I'm pleased to see so many self-posessed and totally non-influenced people on these boards. I cannot claim to be so myself- I very much recall feeling inferior to the skinnier, prettier girls in movies, mags and at school when I was growing up. I even had a bout with anorexia, but luckily I wised up and grew up. Looking at Keira, Nicole and the like, I think I was still on the chubby side even when I was anorexic. Thank goodness I no longer give a damn, but I do worry about my daughter going through the same thing.

A boy can dream...

Well, I don't know many self-posessed 10-15 year olds. That age sucks no matter what you look like.

The interesting thing now is that I get more shyt from women about my looks/way I dress/etc than I ever did from men. Your clevage is showing! Your make-up is harsh. Your hair is too wild. Blah blah blah blah blah lang a lang a ding dong.

Ahhhhh, how boring life would be if there wasn't always SOMETHING negative to ofset the happiness I feel. ;)

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Well, I usually have clothes on as well. ;)

Though if she puts on enough of the red lipstick, she's technically legal.

I'm pleased to see so many self-posessed and totally non-influenced people on these boards. [/quote]I for one never claimed to be such. All I said is that I'm well aware of the inevitable influences and do my best to work within them for my own benefit.

Have you always been so, GD? You've never succumbed to stupid, even dangerous things in order to look good to someone else or because it was the hip thing to do/be/wear?

I'm simply saying that we're all grown-ups. (Mostly). We have some ability to filter out crap and think for ourselves. I can't speak for all kids, but rumor has it lots of them seem to act in not-very-adult like manners. To say kids are not influenced by the media and other types of outside sources is (imho) naive. I guess my kid in an anomaly.

Isn't that part of growing up? as Kids we dress like our friends to demonsrtate how alike we are as friends, but as we get older comes the desire to differentiate ourselves from our friends as well as parents. We develop our own style through trial and error. If you're uncomfortable exposing your butt-crack, you'll probably not buy low rise jeans again.

He answered your question before you asked it.

Considering that my parents would not have bought it for me even if I wanted it, it was kind of a moot point growing up. But for the most part, no, I wasn't one to succomb to peer pressure. Sure I did the stupid thing here and there (I seem to recall one halloween that involved machettes, bb guns, and an m-80), but I never felt the need to do any of it. I wanted hypercolor shirts and Rebbok pumps, but I wasn't horribly devastated when I didn't get them.

I was never one to succumb to peer pressure either in grade/high school. I had a Travis Bickle ('Taxi Driver') style of my own that others copied. Combat boots, camo pants... pretty out there for a Catholic school... but we did have free dress days... to their dismay. ;)

And that's the limiting factor in this discussion, isn't it? None of us are pathetic tools.

Otherwise, we wouldn't be here. Sure, we remember our childhoods, or can be reminded of them. Yes, we can hear about the unfortunates who are socialized zombies or SL's criminal clients. But we here (for the most part) have all developed our own personal styles, we are above-average in maturity and consciousness and awareness and willpower. We are swanky, for god's sake!


So we don't automatically go out and buy what's peddled to us on TV commercials, and we don't necessarily dress like the people we see in magazines. We may be aware of social norms like the proper facial expressions for listening to elevator muzak. But deeper down ... deeper than how we dress or groom ourselves or entertain ourselves ... how do we determine what we really want?

Here's where we maybe can empathize with social zombies who don't know how to dress themselves if they don't see it on TV. Because, as evolved and aware as we may be - - chances are we still determine what we want from what we see.




Just as an exercise ... take stock of the things you think you really want. And then determine if you want them because you have a unique, inner desire that stems from YOU - - or if you want them because it's something you've seen in the world (and if you hadn't seen it, you wouldn't have wanted it). You may be surprised at the results.


Humans covet. Even the swanky ones do.

Like Wendy I also have a 10 year old girl. And it’s hard for them. It’s hard for me to find age appropriate clothing for her, especially as she’s tall so wears bigger sizes than other girls her age. I’ve heard her and her friends talking about who in their class is fat. She’s already mentioned her poky tummy. I really do think there is more pressure on them, and much earlier, then when we were kids.

I also overheard a conversation between two of her friends at choir one day. One girl claimed her clothes were from Ambercombie. The others started looking at her labels, and telling her in oh so snotty tones, that they were from WalMart. I sat there thinking these girls are 10 and they’re already ripping each other to shreds.

As a kid I always dressed oh so un-coolly. No way my mother was paying for anything cool. I spent half of 8th grade in high waters because I grew 3 inches and my mother decided I didn’t’ need new pants until I stopped growing. I couldn’t dress how I wanted until I started earning my own money and bought it all myself. And then it was what I thought was cool, which wasn’t usually what the rest of my peers thought was cool.


So far my 10 year old kind of goes along to the beat of her own drummer. She does like some of the stuff that’s trendy but she’ll do it her own way. And it doesn’t bother her if she’s different than a lot of her friends. She likes country music, which most of her friends don’t. And so far she’s ok with that. Jr. High and High School will be a different story.

I think kids always find something to use as a tool for harrassing and sectionalizing other kids.

The fact that perhaps clothing is more of an issue these days than when we were young (though when I was young I remember a lot of teasing over what people wore -- you did not want to be the kid wearing moon boots on a snowy day after about 1982) is because of the expansion of the middle class and the cheap availability of textile variety.

There is more variety and more money to buy that variety and suddenly fashion comes available as a tool for childhood drama. In the 1940s for the most part everybody wore very similar clothing unless they were on the wealthier side to afford more expensive fabrics.

On the other hand, however, I would say things were worse in this regard in the late '60s and early '70s when the way you dressed was essentially an identity card as to who you thought yourself to be.

Kids have always found ways to tease each other, establish hierarchy in comparison to each other. Weight and clothing may be more involved than in the past but that is just a symptom and not the cause.

And, just to get in trouble (and I've never seen the child of anybody here so it is completely abstract): Maybe your kid is fat. Maybe a little bit of teasing will help put them on a healthier path. You tease the kid who eats glue and eventually he stops eating the glue. I'm not saying teasing is a good thing but it isn't always a horrible thing, and is pretty much a constant across time, culture, and geography. It is just the same peer pressure towards societal norms that adults engage in but, as with everything else kids do, lacks in subtlety.

Kids used to tease my pointy ears and call me Mr. Spock. I guess the healthy path was to just accept that I had pointy ears and move on. Some may have wanted plastic surgery. I don't know if teasing is good or bad...

Oh God yes! I love fashion. I think it is both a wonderful daily creative expression for the wearer and a fascinating social commentary. I love seeing what "new" combinations of shapes and fabrics each season will present. But, I take that information and edit it for my own taste. I don't choose to wear every style and shape that out there just because it is popular. It has to fit my own personal style. But, I AM influenced by the current style makers and I readily copy the shapes of contemporary styles (I also copy the shapes of vintage styles as well).

I'm not inheriently super creative. I do a lot of copying with everything "creative" I do. I thank GOD there are really creative individuals in the world that I can be influenced by.

Every kid gets teased at some point for something, weight, nose, glasses, braces, bad haircut, freckles, height. What bothers me I guess is that instead of accepting that you are who you are, kids are going to more extremes to fit in. Like high schoolers getting plastic surgery because they think a smaller nose or bigger boobs will help them in life. Or that they need to fit into a size 2 and go to extremes to get there. Or working out for hours and hours to have a hard body, in gradeschool. Granted all of this has existed to some extent, but it does seem to be a much larger problem now than when I grew up.

What happened to Free to Be You and Me?

What happened to parents being a moderating influence on the stupidity of youth? Almost everything you mention can only be done with the acquiescence of the parents.

Maybe that's why it is worse now (if it is). In the past you could tease but that wasn't going to get the kid a new wardrobe (or a nose job) and eventually most learned to ignore it. Now teasing actually works (since so many parents find it hard to say no to their children) and the smart child knows it pays to play up the drama of teasing.

This is funny to think on but if I had myself adjusted each time something about me was teased in grade school, I'd be a guy with bleached skin, rounded ears, small nose, with a lip reduction who was also pretending to be straight... In short, I'd be Michael Jackson.
:D

Were it up to her, by sister would have shown up to school every day dressed like Madonna. Didn't happen. I never got my hypercolor shirts or rebbok pumps.

Yeah, it meant that through the bulk of my adolescence, I was somewhat of a social outcast, though never to an extreme. I had friends, just not really in with "the cool crowd". But is that such a bad thing?

They called me Mr. Spock too! Well, not the kids so much, but my parents did! I grew into my ears a little, though they still point out at the tops.

And I think teasing is a crap way to teach anyone anything. Period. Friends can take the piss, I'm totally alright with that. But teasing in general isn't about teaching, it's about making yourself feel better by ****ting on another person, I don't care how old you are.

The excessive 1980s? Heh.

"It's alright to cry, crying takes the sadness out of you. It's alright to cry. It might make you feel better."

See, they thought we were Vulcan, but in actuality we are hottie Elves from Lord of the Rings...
:)

My perception is that teasing of that nature used to be considered bad behavior which might merit punishment, but that now it is those who are being teased who are considered at fault for not making appropriate alterations in their appearance.

I think what we need to give children is an arsenal of appropriate retorts. I sure wish I had them when I was a kid. Sometimes I wish I had ore of them now.

Who considers teasing appropriate? I would argue it has gone way too far to the other end with kids forced to sits through hours of programs on why teasing is bad and wrong and harmful to self esteem.

Heck, even when I was in school this was already starting with whole assemblies talking about the horrors of being mean to each other. We all just thought the adults were being awfully stupid and continued calling each other names and teasing anybody we didn't like. Posters adorned the school striving for zero put-downs and once a week in home room (in middle school) we had to write an anonymous note where we said something nice about another person in that room and that note would be given to them. These were called "warm fuzzies." We though them equally stupid and the nice things we ended up writing were things like "It is nice that you're not dead" and "You're less stupid than the teacher."

I agree with a lot of what Alex said. My daughters school has some lamo progam called the "Pillars of Citizenship". You're supposed to give other kids little pieces of paper when they do somethig that exemplifies one of the "pillars". And every week someone from each class (and of course each kid gets a turn) gets voted citizen of the week or something like that. Lame.

On the other hand there are gradeschool and jr. high kids who are committing suicide because they are teased so badly.

And yes a ton of it is the parents. I've stopped mine from going out the door in certain things she wanted to wear that wern't appropriate for school, just this morning in fact. But I see tons of other kids every day wearing short short skirts, platform sandals and belly shirts. And wearing make up. In short streetwalking regalia. When we were in school they'd send you home. Now the parents would throw a hissy making it very difficult for administrators and teachers to enforece the rules.

You, sir, are on my last nerve.

"With a prompter in every cellar window whispering comebacks, shy people would have the last laugh."

Sorry to hear that. But now that you are down to only one, which part of your body do you use it to feel?

He said he was doing it to get into trouble.

Besides, is there no one in the world that is fat? Or is that word verboten now?

Somewhere in there, Alex has a valid point.

I was recently reading about a debate within the medical community. It seems that for a while now, there has been a tendency in the pediatric field to understate the degree to which a child is medically overweight. Namely, instead of "overweight" or "obese", doctors, to avoid hurt feelings, have been trained to use terms such as, "at risk for obesity", even when a child is overweight by an amount that would have doctors calling adults "overweight" or "obses". Personally, I think that's ludicrous. I don't want my doctor to lie to me to "protect me feelings." If I'm overweight and putting myself at risk for health problems, tell me I'm overweigth and putting myself at risk for health problems.

Obviously, a doctor vs. a school yard bully are two very different cases. But as a society, we seem to be sacrificing a certain amount of honesty in the name of "protecting feelings". Feh to that, I say.

I said that it was my perception. I'm not in jr. high any more so I have to rely on what I hear from parents, teachers, and counselors, several of whom have expressed frustration that parents of those doing the teasing refuse to permit any discipline of their children, and thus administration holds that the only action that can be taken is to encourage the child being teased to change their appearance so as not to "attract negative attention."

I don't think society has much interest in being honest. In my experience, society is much more interested in hurting others to make itself feel superior.

No, it's not verboten. I call myself fat all the time. The word is 25% of my screenplay title. And I don't use it as a pejorative, just a descriptor.

I simply found what he was saying to be crass and glib, whether he knew what her daughter looks like or not. And in general, when people say they're saying things to "get into trouble" I don't hold what's said in much esteem.

Oh, I'm completely open to doctors giving us the straight story. That's important. And it's not as though I think that self "fat acceptance" is OK without taking action to take care of yourself. I've said it before and I'll repeat myself: we must both love who we are, and love ourselves enough to take healthy action.

School bullies, or grown-up ones, sacrificing politeness and empathy in favor of being blunt isn't something that interests me, though. If people here spent their time teasing me because of my weight, or repeatedly pointing it out, or telling me how I'm ruining my life... I would not be here anymore.

I didn't say I was saying it to get in trouble, just that by saying it I fully expected people to have problems with it. If I want to troll, I'd like to think I'd be better at it than that.

As I said, I have no idea who's children may be fat, though based on the statistics I would guess that at least a quarter of the children of people on this board are fat. In my opinion, whether a kid actually is fat influences how a parent should talk to their kid about the teasing and how the kid itself should respond to teasing.

This does not make the teasing ok. It should still be punished (though not like it were some kind of capital offense). Being teased and learning to deal with it is part of growing up. Learning that teasing is not appropriate is also part of growing up. And for the most part it is a hierarchal cycle, not a latter and kids end up needing to learn both lessons. Both are lessons that many people have trouble learning and, frankly, I find people who make it to adulthood and can't cope with being teased or bullied almost as annoying as people who grow up and haven't learned not to tease and bully.

In the vein of what Prudence mentions, I don't think it is so much parents saying that teasing is ok as being in denial that their kid would actually misbehave. Similarly I think too many parents go too far in protecting their children from kids who are mean or simply don't like them (especially the parents who when confronted with "the kids will make fun of me if I don't have X" then go out and get X for the child).

Fair enough. Personally, I can handle teasing. But unless it's coming from a place of fondness and good humor (i.e. Audra's reference to "friends taking the p*ss") I'd really rather not be around it.

I quite agree with you about parents who acquiesce to societal pressure on behalf of their children. Particularly of the sixteen-year-old boob job variety.

Getting back to the original topic, or somewhere near it anyway....

It's obvious we all have different attitudes about what influences us and to what extent, and there are some who are fortunate enough to have grown up with a healthy attitude. Skinny models don't bother me one way or the other, but if the government of Spain wants to put the kabosh to the silly extremes this whole waif thing has gotten to then that's their business. I don't know enough about Spain's system of government to know if this is legit to do or not, but considering our government's ongoing obsession with applying their idea of what's right and wrong in nearly aspect of our lives, who are we to bitch?

I do try to moderate what my kid is exposed to, but I don't want to be as censor. She has to live in the real world and she has to learn what it's about. All I want is some goddamned pants that fit her right at this point.

:cheers: Huzzah! This is all anyone wants! Pants That Fit! :cheers:

I can't wait until I'm a gazillionaire and have my own tailor. That'll kick ass.

Here's my secret to being able to buy pants that fit:

I'm a man.

Now you know the secret. Please use it only for the forces of good.

Oh pshah, I can never find pants that fit. Man's got nothing to do with it.






(doubt that the man requirement is present, and you obviously haven't ever even glanced at my pants.)

There have been many, many times that I was shopping that I wished I was a man. I used to buy guy's jeans. Whenever I buy clothes for my younger brother, I realize I'm buying things that I would wear if I were a guy.

If I got a sex change, would that be for the forces of good?

I highly doubt that GD would think so.

I'd love to get the chance to dress myself as a man. I don't wish to be a man permanentally, but the options are really out there in terms of looking good when you're a male.

Yet so many of us fail to find those options. Or don't know them when they are smacking us in the face.

What in the world are you talking about???

Are you saying that the male uniform that exists purely for ease, and barely differenciates us one from the other, presents us men in a flattering light?

T-shirt and pants or shirt and pants. That's two of five combinations.

T-shirts and shorts spices things up a bit. Then there's the cameleon commonality of the ubiquitous business suit. Heck, get a bunch of us to a formal affair, and in tuxedos you can scarcely tell us apart.


I think male fashion is a quagmire of boredom ... perhaps even an insideous conspiracy to dehumanize. It's but one step ahead of Einstein's identical suit worn daily, so as to expend zero energy on sartorial decision making.

The standard options also emit nearly zero energy of self-expression. Ooooh, the pattern of a tie, or perhaps even an entire shirt of beautiful textile!



The heights of fashion and of fashion's greatest expression are denied us, ladies. Dressing like a guy may be easy, but it does little for your humanity.



.

My survey of this is anecdotal and informal, but while occasionally you read articles about men getting facials, spa treatments, etc., I think the majority of women's magazine surveys say that men should not look like they fussed too much with their appearance, and they certainly should not compare notes with women on it (unless, of course, the conversation turns to waxing and triming). Men should just look at ease in their clothes and comfortable with themselves. (This is why hip hop guys with their pants belted in the middle of their ass don't look good. They don't look comfortable.)

Don't underestimate the power of a nice tie. I have a bunch of nice ties. Men and women alike like to touch my ties. It's a grace note like diamond earrings with a little black dress. How much do you actually want to be thinking about a person's clothes anyway?

Oh, I'm sure there are men who find getting clothes to fit difficult, but it seems to pretty much be a universal among women that stores don't sell any pants that fit them well.

This is regardless of body type. Apparently the pants in the stores aren't designed for any woman found on earth.

And odds are that if men had the same standards of fit that most women seem to have then we'd probably find it pretty darn difficult as well. My anecdotal experience is that most men simply don't care much. If it covers the things that need covering, reaches most of the way to the floor, and can be snapped/zipped/buttoned without much in the way of effort then it is an adequate fit.

On the subject of cultural influence, CP and I are running into a prime example of how one can be both culturally influenced and have your own mind/tastes/personality.

For the new place, we're shopping for a club chair. Now, I can say without a doubt that had club chairs not been all the rage over the last several years, we would not be looking for a club chair. Before that, I kinda appreciated club chairs, but they weren't on my radar as something I liked. It took their sudden ubiquitous apperance in every furniture display known to man for us to realize that, yeah, it was something we liked.

So now that we have the opportunity to do some furniture shopping, a club chair was high on our list. But we're quickly learning that the fad has passed us by. The selection of club chairs in most furniture stores has gone down, and prices up. But, unlike people who are slaves to fads, that doesn't change the fact that we like them. Sure, the fad is what woke us up to the fact that we like them, but we didn't like them because they were the fad. We liked them because we liked them, and now that the fad has passed, we still like them.

Now, the new furniture fad seems to be bar-height dining tables. Those are lame, fad or not.

And as an example of how cultural influences can completely pass you by I have no idea what a club chair is.

Some examples of club chairs (techincally, the first and third one, where the arms and the back are on the same line are classic club chairs, but the definition's been expanded a bit)...

I have one of those, but it's not leather, so when I see it, I don't think "club chair." I call it my "big chair" or my "green chair" (because it's green). It's nice for curling up in to read.

Oh my goodness! There are so many options for men!! How could you only have T-shirt and pants and the variation of shorts! Oh, the plethora of choices that are available. Hats, fedoras. Oh, the shoes you can choose without having to decide on heel width and height! Sure, there are fewer choices for males than females, but to deny the power of a well-chosen tie, the right shirt, the cufflinks... The thing I like about male-dressing is that yes, you can go overboard, but it's difficult to screw up, yet you *can* be interesting. One could say decorating a house is difficult, and ends in the same boring result, but they're ignoring choices in paint color that vary away from some form of neutral. The same could be said for how many men dress.

One of my all-time favorite male looks is a deep purple or deep red shirt with a black and grey striped tie, grey slacks, black leather shoes. Then again, a friend of mine a little while back wore some khaki pants and a very finely patterned blue and white gingham shirt, and he looked fantastic... Not to mention, he was slightly unbuttoned and rather comfortable.

The choices are out there, you just have to be willing to look.

I find that yes, the choices are out there for women, there are just so many more pitfalls in our fashion choices.

So what are you advocating for? Exposed Ball Cleavage? Low rise Jeans? Michael Jorden to come out with a line of stripper pumps for men? :D

We actually have a big green chair. (You can see it in the craigslisting.) I like sitting in that one sideways, with my legs over one arm. The other term for "big chairs" is "chair and a half". "Club chairs" are not supposed to be "big", just large enough for one person to sit in normally.

I'm not sure mine is quite a chair and a half--it's not that big. It's just bigger than any of the other chairs in my home. Not comfy sideways, really (I've tried). Perhaps it's bigger than a normal club chair.

In any case, it's green and rattan and I like it.

You guys are in for such a shock when I land.

I'm a queen with NO fashion sense at all. Daggy jeans, ill fitting shirts and grotty joggers sums up my preferred wear.

I haven't bought a new pair of shoes in about 3 years.

I want a kilt.

You do have pearls, though- right?

(And your tiara is lovely, dear).

Hmm, I'm wondering if this is a bear trait. I don't see bears getting too gussied up....right?

Grotty Joggers. That would be a good cat name. Or Band name.

I actually one. Haven't worn it yet as it is a REAL kilt with 14 gazillion yards of heavy wool that you have to roll yourself into. Since most of the opportunities for kilt wearing (SCA wars) have been VERY hot - it has not been an option yet.

Wrong thread

You're just going to the wrong wars. Hey - Estrella's closer to you than it is to me and that's supposed to be quite chilly at times.

The last two were Potrero over memorial day ('though the kilt came in handy for the cold nights) and Imperial War over Labor Day where I believe the temperature topped out at about 146

You need to attend some of our events - with affectionate nicknames such as "May Drown". We rarely have events that are actually hot, and when we do we get heat stroke.