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Michael Moore's "Sicko"
OK, we just watched the newest Michael Moore movie.
Wow. This could be the big one. Unlike his last two films, Sicko might really be the one to start a revolution. |
Since I don't want the medical system he wants, I hope not.
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I have to admit, not having seen any of Moore's previous works (you know, Fahrenheit 9/11 or Bowling for Columbine), I gotta say...this one looks very intriguing. Whether you like him or despise him, I'm curious to see what he has to say on the subject of healthcare.
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I went into the movie with my skepticism on high alert, and clearly there are huge holes in the piece, as there are with any propagandist documentary. What I meant in my original post is that in this movie, as opposed to his previous two, he's not overtly attacking any deeply held beliefs of people who call themselves conservatives. He lifts Hilary up, for example, and then dashes her against the rocks moments later. It's a persuasive piece, and if enough people see it, there are going to be some very interesting debates. |
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And what system would you suppose that to be, Alex? Have you seen the film? Or listened to Moore speak on the subject?
I have my doubts this will start any sort of "revolution," but it's certainly going to spark some interesting debate and conversation (some of the latter right here, I hope). I do think that, unlike gun control and Iraq, the suckitude of the American health care system is pretty much agreed upon by the vast majority of Americans. |
I'm sure all here will be surprised to know that I don't plan on seeing it.
It is easy to present a persuasive argument when only one side of the argument is presented. This is fine and I have no problem with that. It is not intended to be a debate, but something tells me the less than ideal parts of socialized medicine are not presented. If I accept the premise that Cuba provides the best health care in the world (which I do not), then I would ask for what? So I can live on rations of beans and rice in a communist dictatorship without freedom and be relatively free from illness in my servitude of the state? As for the "suckitude" of the American system....someone once said (and it escapes me...Benjamin Franklin, maybe?) that democracy is the worst form of government, except for tall the others. I would suggest something similar could be said of the American health care system. |
"Free." Mousepod says Moore has only one requirement and it is a requirement I oppose. First of all, there is no such thing as "free." Just making people who use the system less than average subsidize those who use it more.
I do not think it is the role of government to provide health care and I think, in the long term, handing complete responsibility for that to the government will lead to the eradication of personal freedom of choice in almost every realm of life. Just as the commerce clause simply forces congress to find a way to define every activity in terms of interstate trade so that they can regulate it, once all medical expenses flow through the government any activity that government wants to regulate will be filtered through how it effects "public health." This is already too big an abuse in our current government (see, for example, the arguments for motorcycle helmet laws). When I am responsible for the medical bills of mountain climber Bob who falls and breaks his leg do I not (so will go the argument) have participation in deciding whether he'll be allowed to mountain climb? Or eat fatty foods. Or live in places that increase general medical costs or any of thousands of other things. I believe that the increasing roll of government in mandating medical care is a large part of its atrononimcal increase in cost and this will only get worse, not better unless the government nationalizes the whole system from research, to equipment manufacture, to institions, to employees. There are some things that are good about other nations systems for doing things and there are some things that are good about ours. That's why we go to Canada for drugs and Canadians come to America for heart surgery. No I have not yet seen Sicko. Unless there were previews this weekend I don't think anybody in this country has yet seen it legally though I know it is readily available on the internet now. But based on previous Michael Moore documentaries I expect that he has cherry picked his facts, engaged in guerrilla tactics to catch people off guard and make them look stupid, and generally distorted things to present his point of view. Which is completely his privilege. |
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Just sayin'. |
Alex hits it on the head, as is common.
Smoking is the best evidence of what is coming, and it will only be hastened by some form of uniform health care. You smoke? Well, then you don't qualify for these procedures because you are willingly putting yourself at higher risk, and as was evidenced by Hillary's health care plan some 15 years ago now, seeking treatment outside the system (or providing it) would be a crime. Transfats are being banned even though they cannot possibly affect the health of those around them, as has been the argument regarding second hand smoke. There are already talks of taxes on fast food restaurants because the food is unhealthful. Put the government in charge of health care and there will be more of the same. Mandatory exercise programs. Overweight or obese? Government diet programs and taxes by the pound. Drunk? Pay the tax. The possibilities for abuse are unlimited. I don't think I'm being paranoid. With smoking, the beginning was a simple warning on packages. Then bans on airlines, and it has continued to advance, with some municipalities even trying to ban smoking in private residences now. I don't think so. |
One of the main purposes of the tax code is to act as a carrot and stick to promote behaviors desired by the government (purportedly at the behest of the American people).
So I don't see anything wrong with using taxes to promote health, and reduce costs on public health care. Alex is right about one thing: there's no such thing as "Free" - and since he didn't bother to see the film (I haven't yet either), he's simply assuming that's what Moore is recommending. From the extensive interviews I've heard Moore give, he is simply recommending that the profit motive be removed from health care, and I heartily agree. Whether or not that would stifle innovation, it's blatently immoral to make health decisions for individual people based on profit motive. Everyone's morals are different. But I'd like to see some rationale for this kind of thing being morally justified. And I'd like to see any such justifications include a hypothetical involving the justifier's self or loved one. Just a request. |
To be fair, Alex used the term "free" not of his own invention, but rather, as a response to Mousepod's definition of what Moore wants, or whatever.
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Nevertheless, it is time we start looking at health care the same way we do our fire and police departments. Somehow, these two groups survive even without handing us a bill for saving our house from fire or burglary. Thankfully, we live in a society whereupon if my home was set ablaze or robbed, the police and fire departments would not first ask if I had the fire/robbery equivalent to Blue Cross, before doing their job. When health care does pass, and I believe that it someday will, it will not be perfect (the fire department can not save every house) but it will be vastly superior to what we have to-day. For the moment, the naysayers have the stage. They'll bluster and sputter and shake their fist in the air, but when its all done, and free health care arrives, we'll wonder how, as a society of caring people, we ever lived without it. I haven't seen the movie yet, either, but God bless Michael Moore. |
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Firemen respond in the case of an emergency. The biggest issue with health care is that it goes far beyond that emergency. I don't call and schedule an appointment with the local fire department to come check the status of my smoke alarm batteries, plan a fire escape plan for my family, inspect the pool fence, They aren't making sure that I have a fire extinguisher which we are all trained to use.
The police aren't liable for your own personal security. If they don't get there, they don't get there. There was a case I have cited before where a woman had a restraining order on her ex. He kept stalking her, the police would not sit outside her door to make sure it was abided by, and they guy eventually killed her. The family tried to sue the police, but the supreme court ruled that the police are not a private security force. They maintain the peace. They cannot, nor are they required, to stop all crime before it is committed. They can't. I hope we never view health care as the fire department or the police department. Because I do care, I realize that profit motive is just as much the mother of invention as is necessity. It would surely be nice if that were not the case, but it is. Until there is a general change in human nature, I'm not thinking taking the profit motive out is a good idea. The logical course, should there be socialized medicine, is that the market no longer controls how many doctors and of what type there are. There will be shortages because of the exorbitant cost of medical school, meaning that there will be cries for free education for those who would be government doctors. Those doctors will be told what they have to practice. The huge amount of medicare fraud that there already is will expand with the expanding government system, requiring an even larger bureacracy to manage. The government does not even do well that which it is specifically mandated to do (control the borders among them). I do not care to trust them with the management of my health care. |
I just don't know how to respond to this. Simply because I cannot understand how people believe that socialized medicine is better. I would rather wait a couple of weeks, maybe a month or two on the outside, for a needed surgery than to wait a couple of years as it would be in Canada.
And as for Michael Moore, considering the proven hypocrisy and intentional misleadings of his past films, why should I want to see it? I haven't experienced death first-hand, but I know enough about it that I know to avoid it. |
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And I would rather people not die while on incredibly long waiting lists for lfe saving procedures.
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Do you have anything that demonstrates long wait times for emergency/life-saving procedures? Everything I've seen regarding long wait periods in Canada has been about hip and knee replacements.
I'm not saying that that's acceptable either, but the arguments usually used against single-payer systems usually seem to me like nonfactual exaggerations. |
Switzerland has the best healthcare system in the world. They require compulsory private healthcare insurance with options of adding on additional care needs - and their care is excellent and, apparently, is very cost effective.
I'm no expert here and, the only reason I know about this at all is because of Chris' Aunt who lives in Switzerland. She got to recuperate at a spa for 6 weeks after hip-replacement surgery. Long article here if you are interested. I think we spend waaaaayyyyy too much time on arguing against socailized medicine and not enough time looking for ways to fix our VERY broken healthcare system. |
I have read on it, and have seen lists of wait times, but frankly, the data I look at varies widely. I have a listing of articles, though, regarding the concerns of the Canadian system. In them, I found this quote to be very telling -
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And as someone who has a father in law who waited too long (his choice) to get knee replacements....trust me. Long wait lists for knee and hip replacements are a big deal. Much pain involved. |
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Well, then. Obviously we mustn't do anything at all, and just hope for the best.
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I'm not seeing where I said any such thing, WB, I'm just arguing against government run health care. Perhaps those that want socialized health care and all the known problems associated with it are the ones "hoping for the best" in ignoring the flaws. The just try anything approach doesn't work for me.
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However, even if you remove "the profit motive" (oh that evil thing) from the equation you are still not removing "mak[ing] health decisions for individual people based on" financial considerations. Removing the profit motive is simply price caps and rationing. Instead of an HMO telling you that they "won't pay for some very expensive procedure but you an go do it yourself" you'll have the government telling you that they "won't pay for some very expensive procedure and feel free to go to Thailand if you want it anyway." Now, there are many things I think could be done to improve our "health system" in this country. But they don't remove the profit motive. But I was just responding to the range of things I've seen in Moore's discussions and particularly to mousepod's summary of the movie's. |
Just wondering where the ideas are, Scaeagles. Profit motive doesn't cut it. It was profit motive that cost my kid her hearing. Capitalism is not the answer to everything. (For the record, I don't necessarily believe socialism is either). Btw, it was my understanding that everyone in Canada actually pays for their healthcare- it's not free. I'm guessing the English pay through taxes as well. From what I understand, doctors are held in high regard in both countries and there are still plenty of people going into medicine. I'd rather be treated by someone who is in the field to help people rather than someone who is in it for profit.
Also, were you father-in-law living here in Spokane, he'd still have a long wait. We have a serious shortage of orthopedic surgeons- most people either suffer or travel to obtain surgical relief. |
My ideas are a little to lengthy to go into now.
However, the premise that pointing out the problems with a suggested solution requires providing a solution of ones own is one I do not accept. |
Oh, I thought this had become something of a discussion, with the give and take of ideas and criticisms and so on. Silly me.
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To tell you the truth, I have to agree with all of you who criticize our Canadian health care system due to the insanely long waiting times. Sure, in Canada, our health coverage is quite good, and we don't have to pay for operations and other medical procedures and hospital stays. (In the province of Ontario, those procedures are covered by a program called OHIP, and I'm sure that each province has its own version of it) But, the trade-off is that when you go into an emergency room, be prepared to wait at least 4 or more hours before you get in there to see a doctor. Because in Canada, we are experiencing one of the largest shortages of doctors in years. I'm not sure what the situation is like in the U.S.A. as far as the numbers go for doctors and nurses, but I assume that it is comparable between the two nations. There has been talk about the privatization of hospitals here in Canada for the last few years now, and personally, I hope it doesn't come down to that, because a poor family like mine would be driven into near-bankruptcy due to the hospital bills that we would have to pay. But, unless we get more people to train to become doctors and nurses in this country (and possibly North America), then our health care systems will continue to be in crisis.
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Uhm , Jughead- the average wait in pretty much any urban ER is at least as long as you described. Then, even if you have insurance, you usually wind up with a fairly substantial bill. (Insurance ER co-pays tend to be high).
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In most of the countries that offer socialized medicine many citizens have now gone to private insurance to supplement the coverage the government offers so they can get those needed procedures quicker and in some cases in other countries.
If we are to go to socialized health care are you prepared to pay the costs? Your income tax rate would be about 50% even at the lower tax brackets, your property tax would double, you would pay 18% for every good or service you purchase and how about $5.00, $6.00 or $7.00 per gallon for gasoline with 70% of that being tax? Are you willing to pay these costs and let a government run another program? We have seen how they have done during natural disasters, with our road system, avaition system and many other functions. And what part do we ourselves play in the cost of healthcare? Americans are fatter now than ever before, we put in more hours at work than any other industrialized nation, we stress about our employment, family life, government issues, etc. Look at the proliferation of quick serve meals and fast food restuarants. We will wash our car weekly, change the oil regularly and perform maintenance on it as it is our very means (especially in SoCal) of going about our daily routine. Yet when it comes to our health, we wait until something dramatic happens, before we seek help. When was the last time you had a regular check up? |
I didn't even go to a doctor when I literally cooked my eyeballs and the last time I did go to a doctor (2003) it was because I was in so much pain I literally couldn't walk upright (kidney stone).
If all goes well the next time I see a doctor it will be so he can tell me I have only a few seconds to live so he has to talk fast. |
Just got this press release which I thought some here might find of interest.
NEW YORK, NEW YORK (June 24, 2007) - The trailer for “SiCKO,” Michael Moore’s expose of the American health care system, will be projected with full sound and subtitles on the outside of buildings near the headquarters of leading HMOs, insurance companies and hospitals in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago and Oakland on Monday, June 25th beginning at sundown through 1:00am. This innovative campaign will enable millions of Americans including employees at leading HMOs, insurance companies and hospitals to see a sneak peak of Michael Moore’s acclaimed documentary that explores and examines their industry’s role in our nation’s troubled health care system. SiCKO is written, directed and produced by Michael Moore. The film is produced by Meghan O'Hara and co-produced by Anne Moore. Kathleen Glynn, Bob Weinstein and Harvey Weinstein serve as executive producers. SiCKO opened exclusively at the AMC- Loews Lincoln Square Theater, Friday, June 22nd and is opening nationwide on Friday, June 29th. The trailer will be simultaneously projected at the following locations from sundown to 1am. Bay Area Locations: SAN FRANCISCO Projection Site: Intersection of Broadway & Montgomery St. Locations of interest nearby: E-surance Kaiser Permanente Sutter Health Saint Francis Memorial Hospital Chinese Hospital Ocadian Hospitals & Care Centers OAKLAND Projection Site: 1950 Franklin St. Locations of interest nearby: Kaiser Permanente Kaiser Permanente Kaiser Center Kaiser Foundation Hospital Additional Locations: LOS ANGELES Projection Site: 4343 W. Sunset Blvd. Locations of interest nearby: Kaiser Permanente Medical Center Hollywood Community Hospital Health Net Guardian Rehabilitation Hospital Childrens Hospital Los Angeles Hollywood Presbyterian Medical Center NEW YORK Projection Site: Times Square, 625 8th Ave. & 40th St. Locations of interest nearby: Benefits Quest, Inc. Empire BlueCross BlueShield Group Health Inc. The Guardian Metropolitan Life Insurance Co. Health Insurance Plan of Greater New York Mutual Life Insurance Co. of New York St. Clare’s Family Health Center St. Vincent’s Midtown Roosevelt Hospital Beth Israel Hospital NYU Medical Center NY Presbyterian Hospital National Jewish CHICAGO Projection Site: 525 N. Michigan Ave. Locations of interest nearby: Blue Cross/Blue Shield Wells Fargo Northwestern Memorial Hospital |
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Mind you I knew they were this past weekend the 23rd in San Diego. I dont know when they were in other cities. I know the sneaks were in response to the fact that the film was on the web. I just couldnt find anyone else who wanted to attend. |
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Don't get me wrong - I would love to see something that corroborates this info. Do you have anything? I agree with the basic premise but find much of this hard to swallow. |
Thank you Ponine. At the time I posted I was unaware of the screenings (should have looked first, though) and thought the only way to see the movie was by downloading it from any of the many online sources (it was at YouTube in 10 minute chunks and Google Video for a while even).
So my apologies to mousepod for making that assumption. |
No need to apologize. I just figured you were being a jerk for fun.
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Fair enough. Though I prefer the term prick.
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Sometimes I can be a jerk for prick.
I mean, if that's what it takes. |
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My union sent out an email to everyone stating there were sneak previews and how to get tickets. Seems the union feels he is in the right. (I personally hate the in your face attitude of my union, and was totally offended that they sent me an email after I asked to be removed from all union emails) Though I didnt think you were being a prick about it, I just assumed you didnt know. Had they not told me, I'd ahve had no idea when the sneaks were. I had read on CNN or in EW that they were going to happen, but I dont think I knew more than that. |
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Anyway, my aunt was/is Canadian and I know she had to wait many months for surgery to remove cancer and the chemo that followed. It was also more than once. They finally moved to the US for better health care and schools. If you ask me Australia's health care system seemed just as bad. They appeared to be 20 years behind in medical technology. My mom had some horror stories from the 12 years she lived there. I don't know what the answer is but we need to figure something out. Between the cost of drugs, Dr bills, let alone hospital costs it is outrageous and can sink a family very quickly. |
I went through my deleted email.. it appears the information about the sneaks came from Michael Moore's blog. Not that its important now, but I wanted to throw it out there.
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Across Europe VAT tax, (sales tax) is anywhere from 18 to 22%. The European Union has set rates for VAT while some Scandanavian and other countries charge more. The top tax rates for Spain is 45%, for France is it 48% and Germany 45%. This generally starts at top incomes anywhere from $37,000 to $50,000 per year. (Do Google search, there are many entries for this) Gas Prices http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lis...bal_gasprices/ Quote:
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individ...axrates-e.html Now add in the GST and the tax most provinces charge and now you are at 11 to 15% sales tax. I also have Canadian relatives, one that works in healthcare. It is fairly common knowledge the U.S. has some of the lowest tax rates in the world. Government programs have to be paid somehow, and generally that is through taxes. Since we already have a large number of government programs operating in the red, to add socialized medicine would require adding to the tax base to generate the revenues to pay for this. See economics 101. As for the health statistics, look at the rates of heart disease, cancer, hypertension, etc. The U.S. has some of the highest rates of these diseases of any industralized nation. Quote:
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As for the opinion being worthless, that could be said just about anything posted here. I never quoted it as fact, but as opinion used to stimulate discussion. For further corroborating evidence, you are welcome to do a Google search. I don't post often, but generally when I do, it is because I have enough knowledge to state an informed opinion. Since I use multiple sources, from newspapers, the Internet, books, reports, news and other sources I did not know I needed to post all that info also. Being new to the way Internet forums work, I will make sure to do a more thorough job next time.:D |
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Table 1. The role of private health insurance in western European health systems Role Coverage Examples Substitutive for people excluded from or allowed to opt out of statutory health insurance excluded: families with annual incomes over €30 700 in the Netherlands allowed to opt out: families with annual earnings over €45 900 in Germany Complementary services excluded or only partially covered by the state such as dental care or user charges excluded services: France, Ireland, the Netherlands, Spain, the United Kingdom cost sharing: Belgium, Denmark, France, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Portugal, Sweden Supplementary increased choice of provider and faster access all countries; the main role of private health insurance in Finland, Greece, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom http://www.euro.who.int/HEN/Synthese...ing/20040630_3 |
There are some who would argue that our standard of care is the culprit, Mrs. Nesbitt, not our standard of living. I know a lot of people who don't go to the doctor for well-checks because they cannot afford it. I know a lot of people who live very healthy lifestyles, and yet they still get sick. My best friend died at 37 of lung cancer, and she did not smoke. She also did not have insurance, so she waited until she had not choice before she went to the doctor. She couldn't even afford the visit where she was told she would probably die.
I think I will wait to post anymore until I've actually seen the movie. |
While affordability is certainly a problem for many, I have concerns over a government-run healthcare system, especially in light of the direction that the political pendulum is swinging. I certainly wouldn't want the right, particularly the religious right, controlling my health decisions, on top of the other potential costs that are absorbed by us as a whole.
I'm uneasy about so much these days. I'd feel better (though still probably not 100%, because that's just who I am) about a socialistic turn in healthcare if we had a more open-minded government, in terms of scientific research. Unfortunately, this is not the case at the moment, so I remain uneasy about any significant change in health care. As it stands, voters on the religious right are too busy arguing about whether Mitt Romney, a Mormon, is of Satan... because... you know... Mormons don't believe in Christ or anything - how can I rely on them to know what's right for me or my body, if so many of their proponents don't know the difference between their various cults. (For those not in the know... Mormons really aren't all *that* different from regular old Christians) Thus, at this time, I don't want the government involved with my healthcare decisions until I can feel more secure in what choices I have available. |
I agree our healthcare system is not perfect and changes need to be made. There are always exceptions to the rule and while living a healthy lifestyle does not mean you won't contract a disease, it is always better to try and prevent it.
As with all of Moore's movies, while classified as a documentary, he does find examples to fit his theme for the movie. It is not an objective piece. None of his movies have been. It if helps move this country along in changing its health policies that is great, but I think using the rest of the world is an an example and saying they have it right when they have many issues also is just onesided. No one has the perfect system and I do not believe socialized medicine, with the history our government has in running programs, would solve the problems. As for costs, a general visit once a year to a doctor for a physical probably would be about $150.00. $3.00 a week. One less latte, lower your cell phone bill, cut back on the Internet, there are always ways to save money. Often we take for granted things that are luxuries and call them necessities and then say we cannot afford the basics. |
Mrs. Nesbitt - Thank you.
I agree wholeheartedly. Addendum: Yes, I will watch the movie, and evaluate my opinions, while keeping certain propagandistic tendencies in mind. |
It is rather nasty though when routine procedures cost obscene amounts. I have a Blue Cross PPO (cost: $3000/yr). I have a $500 deductible on health visits and $500 deductible on named prescriptions.
In any case, I'm *still* paying off the "routine" colonoscopy I got last year. I had to get a blood test first due to the anesthesia that they were giving me. So, AFTER insurance (these are all approximations): Gastro Doctor (1 visit + procedure): $300 Regular Doctor (Exam + Blood Test + EKG heart check): $800 (expensive because he got my deductible $$) Hospital for colonoscopy: $250 Biopsy: $50 Other lab work: $50 I can't remember if there was a separate bill for the anesthesiologist. So it was around a $1450+ bill, out of pocket, AFTER INSURANCE for a "routine" test (and from what I've been told, that's on the "incredibly good" plan that I have!). |
As we discuss this, can we keep in mind that involving the government in improving our health care system does not automatically mean we have to give it to them to run?
That is all. |
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Why is the news story that preceded Moore's reaction so horrid? Why should that provoke such a reaction of anger?
I'm not trying to ask rhetorical questions, I'm serious. I've never quite understood the angry reaction to debate, whether that be on Iraq, health care, gun control, or global warming. For example (and I haven't seen the movie), apparently Moore cites the WHO ranking of the US as 37th in health care. He praises Cuba's system. Cuba is ranked 39th on the same list. What's the problem in pointing that out? It's as if he doesn't want to engage in debate, he wants his position accepted without question. |
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And, not that I support the Cuban style of just about anything, but criticizing Cuba for being 39th is kind of like scoffing at the talking dog because it can only say five words because your teenaged son can say six.
Considering all the disadvantages it operates under, Cuba being 39th is quite an accomplishment where the United States being 37th is somewhat embarrassing. |
In case anyone is curious, here is the complete list oh WHO's rankings:
1 France 2 Italy 3 San Marino 4 Andorra 5 Malta 6 Singapore 7 Spain 8 Oman 9 Austria 10 Japan 11 Norway 12 Portugal 13 Monaco 14 Greece 15 Iceland 16 Luxembourg 17 Netherlands 18 United Kingdom 19 Ireland 20 Switzerland 21 Belgium 22 Colombia 23 Sweden 24 Cyprus 25 Germany 26 Saudi Arabia 27 United Arab Emirates 28 Israel 29 Morocco 30 Canada 31 Finland 32 Australia 33 Chile 34 Denmark 35 Dominica 36 Costa Rica 37 United States of America 38 Slovenia 39 Cuba 40 Brunei 41 New Zealand 42 Bahrain 43 Croatia 44 Qatar 45 Kuwait 46 Barbados 47 Thailand 48 Czech Republic 49 Malaysia 50 Poland 51 Dominican Republic 52 Tunisia 53 Jamaica 54 Venezuela 55 Albania 56 Seychelles 57 Paraguay 58 South Korea 59 Senegal 60 Philippines 61 Mexico 62 Slovakia 63 Egypt 64 Kazakhstan 65 Uruguay 66 Hungary 67 Trinidad and Tobago 68 Saint Lucia 69 Belize 70 Turkey 71 Nicaragua 72 Belarus 73 Lithuania 74 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 75 Argentina 76 Sri Lanka 77 Estonia 78 Guatemala 79 Ukraine 80 Solomon Islands 81 Algeria 82 Palau 83 Jordan 84 Mauritius 85 Grenada 86 Antigua and Barbuda 87 Libya 88 Bangladesh 89 Macedonia 90 Bosnia-Herzegovina 91 Lebanon 92 Indonesia 93 Iran 94 Bahamas 95 Panama 96 Fiji 97 Benin 98 Nauru 99 Romania 100 Saint Kitts and Nevis 101 Moldova 102 Bulgaria 103 Iraq 104 Armenia 105 Latvia 106 Yugoslavia 107 Cook Islands 108 Syria 109 Azerbaijan 110 Suriname 111 Ecuador 112 India 113 Cape Verde 114 Georgia 115 El Salvador 116 Tonga 117 Uzbekistan 118 Comoros 119 Samoa 120 Yemen 121 Niue 122 Pakistan 123 Micronesia 124 Bhutan 125 Brazil 126 Bolivia 127 Vanuatu 128 Guyana 129 Peru 130 Russia 131 Honduras 132 Burkina Faso 133 Sao Tome and Principe 134 Sudan 135 Ghana 136 Tuvalu 137 Ivory Coast 138 Haiti 139 Gabon 140 Kenya 141 Marshall Islands 142 Kiribati 143 Burundi 144 China 145 Mongolia 146 Gambia 147 Maldives 148 Papua New Guinea 149 Uganda 150 Nepal 151 Kyrgystan 152 Togo 153 Turkmenistan 154 Tajikistan 155 Zimbabwe 156 Tanzania 157 Djibouti 158 Eritrea 159 Madagascar 160 Vietnam 161 Guinea 162 Mauritania 163 Mali 164 Cameroon 165 Laos 166 Congo 167 North Korea 168 Namibia 169 Botswana 170 Niger 171 Equatorial Guinea 172 Rwanda 173 Afghanistan 174 Cambodia 175 South Africa 176 Guinea-Bissau 177 Swaziland 178 Chad 179 Somalia 180 Ethiopia 181 Angola 182 Zambia 183 Lesotho 184 Mozambique 185 Malawi 186 Liberia 187 Nigeria 188 Democratic Republic of the Congo 189 Central African Republic 190 Myanmar |
When is the last time you watched an interview that was preceded by a short film essentially disputing everything the interviewee was about to discuss? (Short of that person being a neo-Nazi.) It was a dirty trick.
But I guess it backfired. As so far as Cuba being 39th ... well, the news channels like to make a big deal of this, as if it would somehow prove Moore's claims wrong. How could free healthcare be so great is Cuba is 39 overall! Well, we're 37th. What that says to me is that Cuba has the same quality healthcare as we do but it is FREE. Lord, if only our politicans were as bloodthirsty, things could change for the better. Go get 'em Moore. |
Part of the debate I see but don't care for is viewing "health care" as a standalone, societally isolated subject.
Living the fancy life in Paris would be great, but I would not want to try and live the life I now live in France. They have better health care but they have a working environment that I'd not enjoy (and that many successful Parisians apparently don't enjoy based on the number I've worked with who escape as soon as they can). Castro's healthcare might be great, but I don't want to live in his country for many other reasons. I still haven't seen the movie but I have seen several lengthy segments. And Michael Moore definitely raises many good points. Insurance companies dodging out of coverage they've agreed to is not a good thing and should be stopped. But I also don't agree with his solutions. I'd quibble with some stuff but I overwhelmingly agree with this guy's view of things. It isn't just a matter of changing an isolated black box that is health care it is changing a whole social fabric and that is both more difficult to do and causes in me more trepidation than if it were possible to just unplug the current system and put in a new one. |
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And the health care is rationed just as under the American system. All that is different is who does the rationing. |
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Yeah, we get it, Alex. Nothing is 'free,' by your definition. Stop getting hung up on that one (admitedly dominant) meaning of the word.
"Free" when applied to healthcare is meant to mean the "free" as in police services, fire services, public schools, etc. Meaning, no money shelled out of your pocket one instance at a time. Everyone knows "free" healthcare is paid through taxes. Please try and get over it. It's a shortcut phrase. Language is like that sometimes. Often. |
The idea that "free" is now a synonym for "government service" is scary all on its own.
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I have to ask you Alex, is healthcare the only public service that you don’t want to see paid for by the government? Do you also object to the government providing police and fire protection free to all who need it? Did you pay them for their services the last time you had to call them? If not, why not?
I presume your stance include public schools, what about “free” hospitals and clinics? Museums? Public parks? Historic monuments? Should all of these be privatized; sold off to the highest bidder in the name of Capitalism? Everyone has to pay, and if you can’t afford it… SOL! Sorry poor Americans, you can’t educate your children, visit Yellowstone, Gettysburg, or the Smithsonian. These are only for those who can pay. Your house is on fire? Your credit’s not good? You gotta hand over the cash first before the firefighters arrive! You’re sick? No money, no medication, no free lunches. Don’t get me wrong… I’m as fond of Capitalism as the next guy. But Capitalism taken to extremes is as evil as any other system taken to the extreme. There are just some things that shouldn’t be subject to the profit motive. I (and a growing number of my fellow Americans, it would seem) believe that health care is one of those things. |
Thanks for the link, Alex. Some interesting points. I wonder how pooling would work here considering the vast geographic space the US occupies. Who'd draw the lines? What I found frustrating about Sicko was that Moore basically indicts all Washington politicians (including HRC) as being in the pocket of big industry and then posits a vague solution that would have to have Washington oversight.
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Yes, there are services the government should provide.
But going to a single payer, government controlled system does not remove the "profit motive" it just turns it around. You can always justify adding more police or more fire stations to an environment? So why don't we have a firetruck for every block? Because it would cost too much so you try to create a balance between too few firemen and too expensive firemen. It is a political profit motive. "What is the most we can take from the taxpayers before they vote for somebody else" is just the same thing as "what is the most we can charge the customers before they stop buying." Instead of a drone in a cubical in a suburban Minneapolis industrial park deciding that Treatment X is too expensive for you, a drone in a cubical in a suburban Washington, D.C., will make that decision. "Free" health care is not going to mean that you can go into your local hospital and get a "free" full body MRI every day just for prevention. I am also interested in what would happen to the idea of malpractice since these rationers would generally be indemnified by official immunity from the choices they make (same reason you can't sue Rumsfeld for his poor decisions in managing the war). I have no idea how other countries handle that question so I'd be pleased to see an answer. Also, police and fire are "emergency services." Not the sole source. We already privatize these services in non-emergency situations. The All-Star Game in San Francisco tonight will be billed for the police services they use in security and local traffic control. You need a fire inspection for your new building? That isn't free. I have no problem with the idea that parts of the health care entirety are most appropriate for governmental provision (though I do balk at the idea that if Bill Gates has a car accident I not only pay for the firemen who extract him from the car but would also have to pay for the hospital setting his broken leg) and that there need to be certain social safety nets for those unable to provide for themselves. I'm certainly not saying the current system is perfect and I would certainly agree that there is an incentive for insurance companies to rip off the insured and there are things that can and should be done to diminish those incentives. But one root problem is that we want "insurance" that isn't actually insurance and get really upset when the insurance companies behave as if what they are selling is actually insurance. But if you're going to compare health care to police services you need to compare it to the whole thing, in my opinion. We pay for the policeman who arrests the shoplifter but not the security guards who caught him. In the very long term, earlier in this thread, I also mentioned some societal problems I have with giving complete control of our personal health to the government, the biggest of which is that the government will then eventually take control of anything that can be argued as impacting that health. |
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I firmly believe that individuals are generally fairly smart, but that the masses are generally pretty stupid. Quote:
And darn it - Alex already addressed the police/fire example far better than I could imagine. However, I will add one more tidbit: I don't know of any city that isn't constantly in need of additional police - there always seem to be a shortage. |
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Say, KB, did you know we (the stupid masses) also pay 12 billion dollars a month for war? Of course, we can pay for war, but God help those who would like us to pay for health, right Alex? Thank you both for setting us straight! |
I could become a Mexican citizen, then cross the border back into the US, and then I'd get free healthcare. That's FREE FREE as in, no taxes or anything.
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Most will agree that some services should be provided to all Americans for free (or “without direct user fees”, if you prefer). The main argument is where to draw the line in the sand. Some of us believe health care is on one side of the line, some argue that it is on the other. All we’re really accomplishing here is pushing little piles of sand around. |
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Under Medi-Cal regulations, if you have income, you may have to pay a portion of your medical expenses yourself. It's called "Share of Cost" and it works like a deductible. And don't forget... undocumented aliens do pay sales tax on things they buy here. And if they are working "above the table" they are paying income tax as well. |
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But I stand by my words. Individuals usually make pretty good judgments. An individual is not capable of speaking for the masses - that is the basis of the statement. It is easier for the "masses" to make blanket statements and believe Utopian dreams. This is not a political statement on one side or the other (and could be used by either side of the aisle). It is just a truism that I happen to believe. |
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But at any rate, FREE HEALTH CARE FOR ALL* |
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If, by the sand comment, he meant no one is changing anyone else's mind, that's usually the case ... but not a cause to stop shooting the sh!t with one another. |
There is a vast difference in decisions made by and for individuals which by and large can meet the needs of those whom they are making decisions for, and a mass of individuals making decisions for those that they do not understand nor are capable of meeting the needs of.
So, the intelligence of individuals gathered together does not necessarily equal something intelligent. This is not uncommon thought. I opt out of the public school system, and I get a dollar for dollar tax credit for contributing to charitible organizations that assist in private school tuition. Why is this offered? Because the public school system (while certainly not underfunded) is over burdened and there needs to be a way to alleviate it. Social security is a forced contribution that I will likely never see a penny of and I know I could do better investing my money elsewhere, but that's not permitted (and even fought against). There is such gross mismanagement of medicare and foodstamps and you name it by government that I have no desire to see them involved whatsoever in health care decisions I make for me or my family. Need an abortion? There's a 10 month waiting period. Something tells me that's not going to fly. |
I volunteer to move to Paris as part of a grand social experiment on health care (and to found the LoT Paris Commune)
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Well, you may have a point there, I suppose it was these so-called "stupid masses" who elected Bush into office. Quote:
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And the collective intelligence of the masses depends on the perspective of the individual.
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All I can say is that I'm glad I don't live in Myanmar.
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Now, whether this war is a good use of money is an altogether different this. But I really don't see the argument you're making. Just because I like something better than war is not a justification for the government paying for it. I like Snickers bars and blow jobs better than war too but so far I still pay for those out of my own pocket. We won't change anybody's minds. I am essentially a liberal libertarian and see as a net bad thing the exact same thing you likely see as a net good thing. There is no common ground on which to build a consensus other than to either just all shut up or just enjoy the process of explaining ourselves. But that is mostly moot. If I though Moore's suggestions would actually result in a massive improvement I might support it anyway. But I don't think that, in fact I think if the choice is that or the status quo then the status quo is preferable. That's just me, though. I don't think the people who disagree with me are stupid, evil, immoral, ignorant, fascists, communists, etc. (though they might be any of these things). I just think we disagree. And that is what makes talking about it interesting. |
And this is where you, Alex, vary from a lot of people.
Too often the rhetoric is that if you don't agree with someone then you are by default stupid, evil, immoral, ignorant, fascists, communists, etc. There is some point at which passion about a subject becomes a desire for totalitarianism. |
Oh, I think Alex's variety is a staple of the people who post on the LoT.
I don't know why it came up sour in the Transformers thread, but one of the things I particularly like about this place is the tacit understanding that those with differences of opinion are not rendering wholesale judgments on the persons who differ with them. At least, that's the assumption I'm going on. |
I agree with that wholeheartedly. That's why I like it here.
And now I guess I have to go read the transformers thread..... |
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TeeHee. I love Michael Moore. |
Good for him. I despise CNN. It's the last internet 'news' source I check, and I never watch it on TV.
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I saw SiCKO over the weekend and was - sickened?
Sure, it's got a lot of grandstanding and Moore-isms but the general message comes through loud and clear: Healthcare in the USA is broken and making huge profits by denying people the life saving treatments they need is an abomination. I know that many people are SOO butt-hurt by the idea of paying for someone else's catastrophe or lifestyle choices or whatever. But we are talking about people's lives and health here. Who doesn't drive? And who wants to worry about being sent to the Wrong hospital (not in-network) in case of emergency? Heathcare should not be decided by people in cubicles anywhere but by doctors and their patients. I thought Moore did a pretty convincing job of showing the French system and how non-involved the government is in healthcare decisions. And I found it interesting the whole concept that the Government is dictated by the wishes of the people rather than scaring the populace into submission. A poor country like Cuba can have healthcare for all and be 39th in the world's rankings. We are one of the richest nations (or maybe the richest?) and we come in 37th? That is disgrace of the highest magnitude and shows that greed run amok does not have pretty results. |
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