An electronic book that works?
 

I've been hearing about Kindle and it sounds pretty good. I'm usually a luddite on this subject and want my books and newspapers in hand rather than virtual. But my iPod and cell phone have made me more receptive to cool little devices.

I'd like to try this, but the sticker shock will keep me away for a few generations. I'd like to see the display in person and find out if it's all that. I like the 9.99 price point for new books. Could be a winner, though I've read some posts elsewhere decrying the design of the Kindle as retro-ugly.

I like the EVDO aspect but it is such an ugly machine and a bit on the heavy side. The annotation ability is a definite improvement over Sony's but I don't think it is quite there yet for what would get me to commit.

But it's close.

One interesting tradeoff is that they went with a screen technology that is more visible in daylight at the expense of a backlight so it's not viewable in low light.

I haven't seen the Kindle's screen in person but it is a slightly lower quality electronic paper screen than the Sony one (4 shades instead of 8 I believe) and the Sony screen looks great (for reading).

I'd have to see it and use it to see if it could actually take the place of paper. I'm rather attached to books, but I am interested.

I love the word "Luddite". I want a t-shirt with that word on it.
:D

Whenever I am in a position to "name" a machine in a network that is not my home stuff I always name them Ned in honor of Ned Ludd.

NA: I don't see a quality reader replacing books but serving as a more convenient carry around than books. I doubt I would use one at home. The fact that the Kindle allows purchases and downloads without having to connect to a computer is a huge thing.

If the aesthetics of the Sony reader were blended with the hardware of the Kindle I probably wouldn't even think twice about trying early adoption.

I guess I do most of my reading at home (or at someone else's home). I don't have a commute that allows for reading time so the only feasible application I can see using it for is when I travel. Now, if only I traveled more........

Here ya go

I'm sure even non-traveler, voracious readers would be interested in $10 books instead of $30 ones. (upfront costs, yadda yadda.) I'm not a voracious reader so I'm not super interested in this concept, but the fact that it carries documents like PDF intrigues me. I can see this morphing into a device somewhere between a laptop and a PDA.

Another thing I like about it is that it seems to be the thin wedge towards free cell based internet browsing without a cell service contract.

The Kindle comes complete with free access to the Sprint high speed wireless network. This is primarily for accessing Amazon to purchase and download books but also includes a rudimentary Web browser that can go anywhere (though the electronic paper screen doesn't display non-text very well).

Can you resell a Kindle book? Can you lend one to a friend (who has a Kindle) like I could with a real book? Typically it's the draconian DRM that keeps me away from this technology.

No, no sharing except between multiple Kindle's linked to the same account. Kinda ironic, actually, considering Amazon's new DRM-free mp3 service.

Amazon also touts the fact that you can load your own Word and PDF files onto the device but buries the fact that they charge you per document for the privilege.

No thanks, I'll wait until someone puts out an open platform version.

Correct. So you can pay for Time Magazine with no photos and The Washington Post without Comics. Meh.

One of the things that interested me was getting newspapers through this device. I could eliminate the stacks of newpaper I take to recycling every few weeks. But I don't like reading newspapers on line so I don't know if I'd like this any better.

But no comics? Total show stopper.

I think Moonliner hit most of the negative points that will keep me from picking up this baby. DRM = teh suck!

Kindle 2.0 is due to launch soon. Did anyone ever try out the v1.0 of this device?

The new one is slimmer, holds more, runs faster, does better graphics (but still black and white) reads aloud and has all the same DRM issues as it's predecessor.




So what's the vote, pick one up, pass, or see what the future brings...

I'm sorry, there are great benefits to this I am sure.

But nothing beats lounging on the couch with a nice cup of something warm on a stormy day and an engrossing book to savour. I'll remain a luddite, no Farenheit 451 for me.

Alex has one, and as I recall he found it very useful. He has particularly mentioned how great it is to, say, hear about a book via some interview on NPR while driving, and by the time he's reached his destination, he's purchased it and is ready to read it.

Agreed.

If (and it's a big if) I was to go for a Kindle, it would be primarily for technical books (Ubuntu, Ruby, Windows 7, Eclipse, etc...) along with perhaps a newpaper or two. I would like to be able to carry around a library of technical books.

I think what would really sell me would be if Amazon had the option to bundle the print and electronic copy of a book at a reasonable price point. That way I could fulfill my desire for instant gratification downloads with long term stability of paper.

Well, I haven't yet ever bought a book while driving. But yes, I've several times bought a book on BART I saw another passenger reading that looked interesting. Or a Daily Show author interview intrigues me and I am reading the first chapter before the interview ends.

Personally I would say that Kindle has been one of the few great electronics purchases I've made. I went into it with a lot of doubt but have only touched a couple paper books since I got the thing in April (they were graphics heavy or a must read not available on Kindle).

I had resisted all electronic book formats previously but E-Ink combined with 3G WiFi access to direct purchase (or free from public domain sites) downloads was the deal maker. Once you get used to it, it almost exactly replicates reading a paper book. Yes, if you find it comfortable to do extended reading on a light-emitting screen then netbooks and other portable devices may make more sense. But I simply can't just sit down and read a novel on a normal electronic display.

The big drawback is that if it is something where you want to flip back and forth within the book a lot (I read a lot of non-fiction so this comes up a lot more than for fiction) that is not convenient.

However, a huge boon is that I have full text search on every book I've read in the last year. And I am always trying to find that exact fact or quote in something I've read recently (frequently to much frustration) so that is great. And it was really nice to take about 20 unread books with me on our trip to Europe last fall.

It's definitely not a device that would be for everyone. But I do have a pretty lengthly list of downstream sales (I think the total stands at 7 people who bought one after getting a chance to spend a few minutes with mine) and they are all very happy.

I've pre-ordered the 2.0 because I want to play with the Text-to-Speech function but I'm 50/50 on whether I'll keep it or return it within the 30-day window.

How is the price point comparison of e-book vs. traditional paper book? Is there a good overview site to review available titles?

What would you consider a reasonable price point for such a bundle?

Amazon claims 230,000 titles available for the Kindle. So you aren't going to find a good overview probably. It is well covered for newer books (I don't often find a new book that isn't available) and really old books. Mid-list titles are more problematic but part of it is that Amazon does not format the books but rather has to get them from publishers. So if a publisher doesn't want to be involved, they don't have to be. Amazon has a Kindle section so you can browse there and see if the selection appeals to you.

As for pricing. Most mass market books are $9.99 or less (there are some technical books that cost more than $6,000 in Kindle format but that is still several hundred cheaper than the paper). And that price would be for books out only in hardcover (generally $24.99 list price). Books in paperback (around $7.99 list) are usually in about $4.99. Plus Amazon has about 3,000 free titles (mostly public domain but some publisher promotions) and most of the public domain electronic book sites offer the titles in Kindle readable formats (and conversion is easy if not).

Thanks for the info Alex; I appreciate it.

Susan has been wanting one and I may get one for her. I just need to make sure her genre of reading is covered.

I would not expect it to be much above the cost of the printed version. Say a $3-$4 charge for the convenience of being able to read "my book" in a different format.

Of course it will never happen because a good percentage of people would turn around and sell their printed copies at a steep discount causing an overall loss in sales.

If $4 is acceptable then while this isn't explicitly done, it is already available to some degree.

Currently there are 67,142 Kindle titles available at Amazon for $3.99 or less. About 7400 of them are completely free. Admittedly most of them are public domain stuff or super backlist. But you can get a paper copy however you want and bundle it with the digital copy yourself.

But yeah, that is a key option I'd like to see them offer (though each publisher would probably want imput making it difficult for Amazon). I'd also like to see the ability to transfer the "ownership" of the digital right to another Kindle user for a small fee with the split going to Amazon, the copyright holder, and the original "rights" holder. So essentially if I don't want my digital copy of Carrie any more (purchased for $6.99 I think) then you can buy it from me "used" for say $2 and we three get something, all coming out ahead with no net increase in teh number of copies in circulation but the copyright holder getting more money.

I KNEW it!

I will say that, though not while drunk, the second panel has proven very useful several times (I have a crappy old cell phone).

It's not a great browser but sometimes it is really nice that it is a bigger display than any cell phone browser (especially when using google maps).

Can you freely surf the web, or is it limited to pre-selected sites?

Can you take notes with it?

You can take notes on the books. You can't take notes on the Web.

You can go anywhere you want on the web but you are essentially doing it with a WAP browser. Limited javascript, no flash, thinks display wonky since few sites have WAP stylesheets.

Plus it is a slow display and there is no scrolling so it breaks into pages that you have to navigate.

It is not a fun browsing experience but for most of my regular "on the fly" data needs it has proven functional. My preferred movie showtimes web site doesn't work because it uses frames combined with javascript. But I found another that does ok.

But you could for example, post to LoT from your Kindle?

Theoretically yes, but have you seen the LoT on a WAP browser? It's pretty awful.

I would expect so, though I haven't tried.

vBulletin pages are very clunky from a WAP perspective though so just browsing the site to get to a point where you want to post is probably not very practical. But if you have a specific purspose I'd guess it could be done.

I'll try now.

What I'm wondering is how good of a student tool this could be.

Access to all the books, wiki and other sites is a good start. If I could custom build a web site that worked with the Kindle for taking notes, class schedules, IM'ing, etc... it might be a very nice tool.

Posted from my Kindle. Not too bad with specific task in mind but definitely would not surf here as recreation.

The rumors are that the next Kindle release will be a larger screen version specifically intended for better display of large textbooks.

That said, I would say that the Kindle is not the appropriate tool for the things you describe. It is intended almost entirely as a reading device and it is pretty good at that. The web capability is just a byproduct of the need to wirelessly get the books from Amazon to your Kindle and is not a particular area of support (and as the comic alludes in the hover text is not a guaranteed feature over time).

Text entry into the Kindle is extremely slow. You can not type quickly on it and so wouldn't really be appropriate for live note taking, IMing, or anything requiring lengthy or formatted text entry (all text entry is of a single line. You can't do even paragraph and certainly know complex formatting).

Plus, the Kindle has great battery life when used as a reading device. The e-ink display takes almost no energy and minimal processor use; just pushing a single button every minute or so while reading a book means the battery lasts for days when you're just reading. But do anything that requires a lot of processing time (such as web browsing) or constant refreshing of the e-ink display (such as a lot of text entry) and battery life isn't great.

:eek:

OMG... if I ever get a Kindle, I'm now going to have to write "Don't Panic" on the cover in large friendly letters.

I've come around to the concept and I think I'll put an eBook reader on my Christmas list this year.

The obvious choices are the Kindle from Amazon and the Nook from Barns & Noble.

Clearly the nook addresses some of my previously stated issues with it's color navigation screen, lending policy, native PDF support, SD slot etc...

On the other hand Kindle actually has the books I want to read in eBook format.

Humm.. Decisions, decisions....

OK, so it's really not that hard of a decision.

Be aware that the Nook lending feature is a publisher opt in feature so not every book may have it (and based on the number that disable the Kindle's "read to me" feature I'd say that's a safe bet). And you can only lend a book for 14 days, and to people who also have Nooks or accepted reading clients. And, unless the announcement coverage was wrong, you can only lend a title once.

If you're lending is most likely to be people in the same household (lending is something I would like to have but recognize I'd never actually use) then keep in mind that up to four Kindles can be put on the same account giving each machine rights to a book with just one purchase.

Merry Christmas everyone.

It was a Kindle Christmas for me. It might wind up being to most expensive present (for me) I've ever received. I've already started loading it up with Computer books, Light Reading, and a selection of free classics I never got around to reading.

That should keep me busy for some time....

That.

Yeah, I gave it to the dark side, but it's not quite as dark as once supposed....

A recommendation: The Kindle Download Guide has proven a wonderful tool for public domain ebooks.

It is a "book" you can download to your Kindle and is essentially just a set of links to public domain ebooks allowing direct download.

http://www.feedbooks.com/help/kindle#guide

Wife got a Sony Reader for Christmas and is happy with it. Problem is that you can only use books from the Sony EReader site. That sucks. Other than that she likes it.

Are you sure that's correct? One of the plusses I've seen touted for the Sony Readers is their support of DRM-ed ePub format allowing purchases from third-party sites. And non-DRM ePub support should mean that it is possible to read public domain books from all the sites that provide them (Gutenberg, etc.).

But since I'm happy with my Kindle I haven't paid a lot of attention to the Sony Reader line of products (no wireless book purchasing means they don't meet my minimal requirements, though I'm open to moving away from Kindle).

ETA: This message board thread has people talking about getting books onto their Reader from non-Sony stores.

The desire to get a Kindle or something similar has me focused on clearing out my huge backlog of unread books.

That might be a good plan. My huge backlog of unread paper books remains in my nightstand getting dustier, untouched since I got my Kindle 18 months ago.

Every once in a while I look at the pile and actually think "I do want to read that, maybe I should buy it on Kindle" before deciding that ludicrous and I should just read the book. But the thought of actually lugging books around with me seems vaguely unpleasant to me at this point. How can it possibly be true that I ever read thick hardcover books one-handed standing on BART? How is it I subjected myself to the silent scrutiny of others by so ostentatiously displaying exactly what I'm reading and how far along I am in public places? Oh the horrors of my pre-technological past.

Thanks, Alex. I will look into that thread immmediately.

As this thread documents I struggled with the concept of an eBook reader for quite some time.

eBooks are an emerging technology. I went in knowing it's going to be a bumpy ride for at least a year or two until authors, publishers, and retailers figure out how to deal with this issue. Right now it does not look like the needs to the consumer is a primary concern for any of them and that will only lead to more problems. In the long run I think authors, publishers and retailers will all have their roll to play and the only one to really suffer will be printing companies who will see their market shrink significantly.


Still, I really like the idea of being able to carry a mini-library with me in an easy to carry reader friendly format (as opposed to say a laptop or Smartphone). In making my choice of an eReader I focused less on the hardware and more on the content. After all if I can't get the books I want to read what's the point? While no device is perfect at this point, the Kindle has more of the books I want to read than either the Nook or Sony products. So I went the Kindle path.

Having had the device for 3-days now, I know a couple of things. I'm reading more and watching/surfing less which I see as a plus, and I'm spending way too much money on books including the 'ludicrous' practice of buying books I already own just for the convenience of having them with me. I'll have to reign in the spending soon or see if there is a Kindle Anonymous group out there....

Also, I've noticed that I'm using it more like an Internet connection and less like a book. I'm reading about five books at the same time. A few pages at a time as the mood strikes me and time allows. I can't say yet if that's the way I will use the device in the long run or if it's just the newness.

That was a big thing that prompted me to get an e-ink reader. I was always reading a half-dozen books simultaneously, each good for a mood or circumstance ("this is the smallish paperback genre novel good for reading on BART with frequent interruptions while this is the 500-page hardcover review of artificial intelligence for when I've got a solid hour to read and reread the same pages if necessary").

So now, the thing was, I'd always have all the books with me. The result now is that I very rarely read multiple books simultaneously but plow through one and get to the next. Still reading the same amount, though.

Query: when you download a title for a Kindle or similar reader, can you transfer the file to someone else the same way you can a hard copy of a book? Will the seller buy it back for a portion of the original price?

No, not if it is in a DRM format. For books in non-DRM formats you can share all you want (though not directly from the Kindle)

Barnes & Noble's new reader, the Nook, does have a very limited sharing capability. Every book you buy through them you can loan to another Nook owner. While you have it loaned out you do not have the ability to read it on your Nook.

However, it is very limited. Each book can only be loaned out once in your ownership lifetime and for only 14 days at most.

That said, with the Kindle you can have up to five Kindles linked to the same account and any book on that account can be downloaded to any or all of the Kindles. Since only one payment account exists per account, though, this means somebody will have to trust other people if they want to link accounts.

But since I do have two Kindles and Lani recently wanted to read a book I had already read on my Kindle, I just gave her my old one and she can read it on there. If she wants to buy new books that is fine since we're financially comingled and I trust her. If she does so, I'll have access to that book as well on my Kindle.

There is currently no concept of a "used book" in the eReader marketplace. I have advocated for it (and it could even be done so that the publisher/author gets a cut of the resale) but I know of no seller planning to do such a thing and I'm guessing the publisher would **** bricks at the thought. That said, because etext versions tend to be significantly cheaper than paper versions of the same thing I think you'd still generally come out ahead on price buying it cheaper up front than buying paper and selling it to a used bookstore.

Interesting. Very interesting. Thanks for the summary.

So, can a Kindle be linked to the account of another Kindle and still have its own private account? In other words, could I be linked to my (theoretical) wife's Kindle and have access to her books while keeping my Doc Savage novels and Mickey Spillane thrillers to myself? Can she buy vampire lesbian erotica without my knowing about it? Or must our linked Kindles share exclusively and exactly the same libraries?

Unfortunately no. At least not with content purchased through Amazon. You can copy non-Amazon items directly from your computer to your Kindle and Amazon won't know a thing about those.

Amazon did, at least, recently add a feature allowing you to abandon your rights to a book so that if you spent a year reading nothing but reading things that would now embarrass you and you want to share an account you can "delete" them. But then if you want the books back at some point you'd have to rebuy them.

The top three features I'd want from Kindle that I currently don't get are:

1. Folders so that I can organize the books on my Kindle in more useful ways than is currently possible.

2. Create a "used book" marketplace. Amazon could say "if you want to sell your ebook, the minimal price is $2 with $1 to us, $1 to publisher, how much do you want to add on top of that?" and then allow transfer of rights. No, not a direct correlate of the existing used book marketplace but something I think would have a greater chance of happening.

3. Separate device permissions. That way a family could link multiple Kindles to one account to share purchases but Dad could still keep his Best of Penthouse Forum off limits.

It would seem that I am seriously under utilizing my Kindle.

If such is your wont, you can download all of the erotica you want from the internet, put it into a single file and then email it to your Kindle via Amazon. It'll automatically be converted to the Kindle format (for $0.10/MB) and you'll always have your written porn with you.

Why you'd want to, I don't entirely know, but you could.

===

In another Kindle tip, for those with a new one. I named my Kindle "If found, call (xxx) xxx-xxxx"

So now that always displays at the top of the home screen. So if I lose it and somebody finds it, they'll see that as soon as they figure out how to turn it on.

A form of this worked for me when I lost my Kindle in a mall in 2008. Fortunately I had left the wireless turned on so as soon as I got home I emailed the Kindle a document called "I'M LOST. PLEASE CALL..."

It got turned into security at the mall, the guard figured out how to turn it on (it was a Kindle 1 so the instructions were helpfully on screen when it went to sleep) and he called me.

Smart idea.

Chances are good I will have one of these pretty soon.

Apparently the item I ordered from Amazon for Susan's birthday this Saturday (I will let you guess what she is getting) has already scanned in the future (and two days after it is supposed to arrive):

Also, when I first looked at the above, I thought it went from Indiana to Kentucky by way of Vernon, CA. But then I looked more carefully at the times.

Kindle arrived and is charging in my office (I should take away its credit card).

Is there anything I should do with it before giving it to her? Maybe set her up with an Amazon account and putting some sort of credit in it?

Any cool suggestions from current users?

Oh, and if anybody says anything to her about this, I'm gonna smack them.

And Susan, if you decided you needed to read Lot for the first time in almost a month, I am going to be upset with you!!!

Well, if you have a 1-click account set up for Amazon then it's already set up to charge to that.

If that's not good then you can pre-do changing that for her.

If you know free books (public domain or otherwise) that she'd like you could put them on there but mostly I'd just give it to her and let her go to town.

Query: do first edition downloads come with authenticated digital signatures of the author?

No, but if you take it to a reading the author will be happy to sign your screen.

I heart my Belkin Kindle Cover. It keeps it all safe and warm.

Thanks for the tip, I will pass that on. The one thing that I knew to leave for Susan to decide on was the cover - it is the one thing she is picky about.

If you didn't get even the basic default cover, though, it should be something she buys almost immediately.

I'll make sure it happens this weekend.

Susan found a book about finding free books for your Kindle

It costs $2.85

I downloaded the Kindle iPhone app for free.

For lack of a better place to put this, I wonder how much of an e-book the much rumored iSlate will be.

I fully admit to deciding to get the Kindle now for Susan so that I wouldn't be tempted to hold out for the iSlate.

I think it'll be a pretty good e-reader for occasional readers or readers who have no problem at all reading LCD screens at length. A lot depends on how much it weighs in terms of comfort reading.

Personally, if they stopped making e-ink readers I'd go back to paper before I'd go to reading books on a lit screen. That's why I never read ebooks before my Kindle.

Amazon has announced that they are going to allow book lending on the Kindle. Should be interesting.

Hmm should be interesting. I finally got a Kindle and I love it. My original drawback was I like to read in the tub. I was talking to another mom at drill who had one and she said she just puts it in a ziplock when she reads in the spa. Duh - that was an easy fix.

And I have the kindle app on my android. It's not the best for reading for long periods but it synchs up to my kindle so puts me on the same page I left off. Great for when you're unexpectedly stuck somewhere.

The book lending is just an attempt to steal Nook's thunder.

The Nook has a severely crippled and nearly useless lending feature. But for some reason it gets good press.

So Amazon is introducing essentially the same severely crippled and nearly useless lending feature.

It is better than nothing but I doubt I'll ever use it as announced.

==

If you want, there are waterproof cases you can buy for the Kindle as well. From my snorkeling and diving days Ziploc bags weren't as reliable as I'd want for protecting an expensive electronic device.

Thanks Alex - I'll look for that.

My only quibble is - and it's my own fault for not looking before I bought - some titles I'd like aren't available on the kindle. Apparently JK Rowling has a distrust of all ebook platforms and won't let them be licensed. For the most part I find about 80% of what I'm looking for is available. There are just a few titles I want but can't get.

Arthur Weasley would be disappointed.