What advice would you give-
 

To a family of 3 considering a move to California?

Don't bring your van.

I assume you're not talking about you, unless some of your family members went off to Hogwarts :P

My advice is to make sure you have a good working vehicle, to avoid Riverside County and/or the Inland Empire, and to call Morrigoon if you are in the market for a house/condo :)

Actually Cherny dear- I am talking about us. In about 4-5 years. I have that time to get my financial house in order and educate myself about the state and the things we need to do to get out there.

So yes- I am talking R, little R and me. :)

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh ok lol I got confused there for a second (I was pretty sure you did not have imaginary holographic kids that I met last week), but the 4-5 years thing makes sense. :)

Check out the job markets first. What you'd get paid here compared to what you're making now. Then research how much housing, gas etc are going to cost you. All of that is MUCH more expensive here.

Also look into how the schools are in the area you want to live, otherwise you'll add on private school tuition for R.

Depends on where you're thinking of moving to. California is a big place.

Do you want to live across the street from Disneyland or are you more hoping for easy access to incredibly good pot by walking into the woods behind your home? Urban, rural, exurban, suburban?

Are you looking to piss off an entire congressional district with your political views or want somewhere they'll fit in better. Do you want to live with people who drive around in jacked up SUVs/Pickups or among people who key them?

Do you like seasons or hate them? Is brown your favorite color or green?

Warning, though, if you wait 5 years you'll probably end up with a governor you've never heard of before (unless we decide we like the actor thing so much that we push Rob Reiner into the office).

All of the above--with the added advice: Don't. That is unless the availability of a job makes it necessary/worth your while given how much more expensive things are here. I haven't done the math, but I'd wager that you can take a family vacation or two to California per year and still have life--housing, gas, food--be cheaper than if you actually lived here.

I agree with Strangler. I wouldn't live here if I didn't have to.

I want to be near the ocean. (meaning I can drive to it easily)
I want to be in the sunshine.
I want to be able to go to the park whenever I want.

We know it's expensive. That is why we plan to pay off all debts outside of the house before making the move.

R wants to work in the video game industry and can do so out there better than here and I can find a job in finance anywhere.

From what I understand, he'd have a better chance in the New England area in the video game industry.

Source? I seriously want to know-

But if that were the case- oh hell no.

We saw several locations for game developers we are familiar with when were were out there last week.

I've been out of the industry for a while now. But a lot of the bigger developers have corporate offices in California. The acutal development is usually someplace else.

College roommate/developer of Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

Good source :)

okies- well.....I am still seeking the advice.

I thought San Diego had some large game companies (at least, Sony Online Entertainment is there)

It's definitely a better market out here than Colorado, but it's not the biggest market for actual development work.

All you'll do is drive here. That's what we do. I live in Orange which is about 15-20 minutes without traffic to Newport Beach. If you're looking to live in Orange County you can always get to the beach.

We have it! You'll see panic when it rains.

I go regularly. I live so close that its a very short drive on the freeway. You can access from side roads easily also.

Housing in Orange County is much more expensive than other cities. My little 2 bd/2 ba condo is currently valued at $320,000 and my place is over 20 years old, no garage, and I dont have my own laundry room. From what I gather I could probably get a giant house in Georgia for the same amount. But I wouldn't live anywhere but here!

What kind of involvement in the industry is he looking for? I don't know his resume at all so don't take this as dismissive or anything. Is he already educated/experienced in the industry?

There are jobs in the LA area, and there are big pockets all over the place (San Francisco, Seattle, Boston, etc). I know several game developers and by coincidence not one of them is in California (Ann Arbor, Orlando, and working from his home in New Hampshire) though all of them work for companies headquartered in California (Blizzard in Irvine, EA and LucasArts both in the San Francisco area).

I certainly would not be one to discourage moving to a place just because it sounds like a good place to live, but the LA and SF areas are both very expensive places to live while twisting in the wind looking for work. My advice would be to move once you have employment rather than move hoping to find it, but everybody has their own tolerance level for the discomfort of risk.

Well, if I'd gone back to my mulling north or south, if I could move across country all over again, I think (hot weather aside) I'd head South. It's stil cheaper than here.

Weigh your financials, you will spend twice what you think you will in the first year, easily.

I work for a company that hires game developers. Not, you know, full-fledged EA-type game developers. Small games for movie websites. We're always looking for experienced developers. As I understand, you'd probably need to be in or near the city if he was working at their offices.

But everyone's right when they say: CA (particularly LA/Orange, or any other major urban area) is super-expensive. Housing is in such a state right now that there are tent cities again. Who knows where we'll be in 4-5 years, but it's definitely a mess right now. Even when it's going well - as it was when we bought - let's just say that my home is 2/3 the size of my sister's (she lives in the suburbs of Indianapolis, with a lawn - we're in a condo) but about 3x the price.

Also, another concern is that LAUSD is a pretty bad system right now. I know several LoTters have found success having made it through LAUSD, but lots of the programs that were available back then are no longer available. It's pretty low-rated as school systems go.

I would suggest having him try to get satellite work with a company that is where you want to live, and after much happy experience with them, THEN move closer.

In 5 years you'll have equity in your home, but there's no telling what real estate here will have done in the mean time. Keep an eye on the markets, if everything starts moving upward, be prepared to make your move sooner.

Remember: if you're going from a less expensive home to a more expensive one, and prices rise 10% on everything, you'll be better off to have sold and bought on the bottom end of the market than after the rise, because any increase in your current home's value will still be outpaced (dollar for dollar) in what you could have done owning the more expensive home while prices were rising.

So my first advice is to keep your schedule flexible and be prepared to move sooner if necessary. But you'll need a couple years where you are to recover from the current market and build some equity in your new home.

I'm not sure I'd tell you to avoid the IE, since really, it would be an easier transition, financially. Mostly it depends on the job thing. If R's job is a deciding factor, then he should come out first and try to land a position, so that you know where you're going. If it's somewhere that allows you access to a less expensive place to live, lucky you.

In OC some areas are cheaper than others, and some areas you wouldn't live in for any price. I'm obviously partial to Lake Forest, as it's a relatively affordable area, but sandwiched in between two of the safest cities in America (Mission Viejo and Irvine often hit the top ten), there's also Laguna Hills, or if these areas are still a bit much you can look at Anaheim and Fullerton, where single family houses can now be found in the mid-$400s with relative ease.

If you need to go cheaper, you're going to have to go inland, to areas like Corona, Hemet, Riverside, etc. The problem is that living there means a long commute. If you get lucky enough to find employment out that way, it can work out well though.

Most of all though: if you're going to do it, do it.

I can't and won't do anything until the boys are out of the house.

R is going to school (soon) so no- he is not educated in the industry yet.

Lots is still in the learning phase-

Look super hard at your finances. There is a saying that you can move out of CA, but you can never afford to come back.

Everything is a lot more expensive. Food, gas, utilities, entertainment, vehicles, registration, insurance. Yes, we have the beach, Disneyland and a million things to do. But they aren't fun to do if you have no money to do so.

Also look at the school systems for the areas you are thinking of moving to. They are all severely underfunded. As bad as this sounds, you'll want to make sure that they aren't under quota for white students. There are weird demographic requirements and if they are, you'll have a heck of a time transferring little R somewhere else if you need t/want to. You'll also want to make sure that they are teaching to the true grade level, and not what "level" most students are at thanks to social promotion.

You'll also want to look at the type of atmosphere you're moving into and the schools in that area. Yes, all schools have the snobs and the outcasts. Some areas are worse than others. Would Little R fit in better at a school in Coto de Caza (super ritzy rich) or a school in Costa Mesa (more middle class).

It'll be awesome if you can move out here. I don't think anyone wants you to do it blindly. These are a lot of things that people may not think of when moving.

Come to Australia.

You don't have parks in your town ? We have a lovely park around the corner. BBQ's and everything ! ;)

We have finances in Australia too !

Come join us !! Forget those DL fiends. Come be an Aussie.

I say do it.
Don't look back.
:)

Moving's tough. In fact, I seem to recall an entire thread devoted to looking back.

As far as home prices go, I read an article suggesting that lots of property in northern California, specifically along the Hayward fault, is scheduled to depreciate dramatically this October.

I thought that Australia was pretty strict about letting outsiders move in?

Or was that NZ?

Yes, moving's tough. Life's tough.
If you want to do it bad enough you'll do it.
Looking back's fun and tough, too...
:)

Fact is though I can not and will not do it until we are a family of three- when the boys are moved and gone and on their own.

That is just reality.

That's true, but I imagine it must be a little easier to just pick up and leave when it's a party of one, as compared to a party of three with little people/offspring to consider. It's feasible, it's doable, but it requires an extra amount of planning. C is right to take her time and make her family a priority in the process!

Who's telling her not to plan?
I'm telling her to move if she wants to move.

No, no, I didn't say anybody was telling her not to plan! I was just saying I supported her waiting until the time was right for her (rather than going because the market will bear...)

It's expensive to live here - no doubt about it. But, there are lots of options and California is a very large place. Even within one city, there are pockets of great, good, bad and very bad. I love Long Beach for several reasons:

It's on the beach and the weather can't be beat.
It is an easy drive to to Downtown LA and Hollywood
There is fantastic public transportation here including the Metro train.
It's urban (5th largest city in CA), but has more parkland than most urban areas in the West
It is politically diverse as well as architecturally diverse
It is NOT Orange County (which I abhor), although OC is easy to get to.
Close to LAX and has it's own airport which is absolutely wonderful.
Several colleges, museums, a convention center, Aquarium, and other attractions.
20 minutes to Disneyland.

There is Real Estate all over the board here from fantastic beach front property, to urban lofts to adorable historic houses. Sunset Magazine voted California Heights neighborhood one of the best places to live in the US.

There's a lot to love about Long Beach. But, like most of CA is isn't cheap to live here. But, it also is less expensive to buy here than OC.

So, pack your bags and about 600k for a house and we'll see you soon!

I know some people bag on the 909 (area code), but Redlands is a safe and gorgeous more affordable community that is one hour from the beach areas and Disneyland. It is also close to Palm Springs, and the east LA county cities, where you both can find good jobs.

I've seen really nice houses at 300K and less there.

Oh Goddess: not another battle about planning.

Back away from the thread slowly and no one gets hurt. ;)

NA, you should write copy for the city.

Sorry, is my marketing gene showing?

No fighting.

I already know this-We would have jobs before we moved out.

So what kind of advice are you looking for? Until you know where the work is and exactly what area you'll be in there isn't much advice that will be of much use.

Buy sunscreen.

If you live in LA you must be indifferent to the San Francisco area.

If you live in the San Francisco area you must hate LA.

Every thing is 20 minutes away from where you are but takes you an hour to get there.

Don't watch the morning news shows in LA, they'll crush your soul.

Watch uphill for the mudslides and grass fires. Watch downhill for the tsunamis and vapid beach people. And watch the feet under your feet so you can glare at it when it betrays you by not holding still.

Wear the sunscreen you bought.

Vons and Safeway are the same thing.


Carls Jr. and In 'n' Out aren't as good as people tell you they are, but they're local inventions so civic pride is at stake.

The weather quickly becomes boring and slowly sucks the will to live out of you (though maybe that is just me).

When you talk about freeways refer to them as "the X" where X is the freeway number. But only if you're southern California. If you're in northern California drop the "the." If you stray into Oregon or Washington use just the number unless it is an interstate then you say I-x. So, if you drive from Seattle to Los Angeles you'll start out on I-5 eventually just be on 5 and then reach LA on the 5 all without changing lanes. If you keep driving you'll be on el cinco (not really).

When I lived in southern California in the 70s, we always spoke of the Santa Ana Freeway (5), San Diego Freeway (405), Newport Freeway (55) and the Garden Grove Freeway (22). Only the 605 was the 605. I don't know if everyone else did this or if it was just my family's holdover from how we spoke of the highways in New York.

How come the 405 is called the San Diego freeway, yet it doesn't go to San Diego, at all????

It was built by Algernon SanDiego originally.


(I think... what would I know, I'm just an Aussie...)

While the 405 doesn't go to San Diego, the San Diego Freeway does (I-5 from the El Toro Y to San Diego). The route number and freeway name are not always synonymous.

Wikipedia:

I'm so tempted to mojo Alex for that insightful California advice, but - out of respect for him - I won't do it.

Go ahead....do it!

Advice-

Where to look for good information?

What areas ARE good to look at? (like NA's Long Beach info)

I've gotten an idea of the cost of housing from some people as well.

I may just by pining for being there since I just left.

OK, limited board availability has prevented me from actually reading all of the posts, aside from the first few, and scanning a few others.

I think it's smart that you're paying off your outside debt first. But, I'd also pay attention to the housing market itself, since it could be as important an indicator as anything else. I'm no expert, and I'm sure someone else said something about it before.

Regarding the video gaming industry, I know EA is out on in LA's westside (might be Marina Del Rey, though I'm not 100% sure on the actual city boundaries any more)... and there are a few others, like the aforementioned Blizzard. I know that the guy who owns Activision, and a number of other now-wealthy game developers used to frequent the dental office I used to work at.

I also noted what LSPE said about other game developer opportunities, and they abound in California. There are numerous jobs that would fit him in areas that are a little outside the box. Check some out!

As for areas to look at, it's not particularly one or the other, though I'm pretty sure it's best to avoid the Inland Empire... though everything else will probably cost more. I'd check on that in 4-5 years to see how the market holds up to what people think are 'good' and 'not-so good'. Plus, some former 'nsg' places have become better... I'll cite Corona as an example... and it's actually close to the park... even if the majority of the eats in the area are chains. It's also getting more expensive to live there, as the eastward expansion seems to have swallowed the town up. I know a friend's neighbor has had an impossible time selling her home, and has had to lower her price several times over. I don't know if it finally sold - but if it did, I'm sure she didn't turn a profit, so it might have been a good bargain for a buyer.

Anyhow, that's my early morning rambling, and I realize I'm going to be late for work. I'll try to catch up on this later... and good luck!

Alex knows not of what he speaks. In N Out IS that good. Carl's - meh.

We did this quite a bit and some of the traffic reporters still do.

It is interesting to note that the I-5 is only the 'Santa Ana Freeway' between downtown LA and the merge with the 405 in Orange County. As JWBear noted, it is the 'San Diego Freeway' south of there. North of downtown, it is referred to as the 'Golden State Freeway.'

Some other freeway names that I am familiar with:

• 710 (formerly the 7) - Long Beach Freeway
• 57 - Orange Freeway
• 118 - Ronald Reagan Freeway
• 10 - It is known as the Santa Monica Freeway west of downtown and the San Bernardino east of downtown (I am not sure where it stops being the San Bernardino).
• 101 - This one is interesting. "North" of the interchange with the 170 and 134 freeways, it is the Ventura Freeway (I am not sure at what point north it stops being the Ventura Freeway). South of this interchange (170/134), the 101 becomes the Hollywood Freeway. However, the 170 Freeway is also called the Hollywood Freeway. The 134 is, I believe, the Glendale Freeway. But if you look at a map of this interchange, the 101 Ventura Freeway and the 134 are a straight line. Weird.
• 91 (between Anaheim and Corona)- the Worst Freeway in the World. Well, that's what I call it. Others call it the Riverside Freeway.

As Alex mentioned, it is hard to give advice until you know where you are going. California is a too widely varied state to just give simple advice.

The basic info is that Orange County and San Francisco are very expensive. San Diego (IMO) has the best overall year-round climate. The closer you are to the major population centers, the more expensive it is going to be. The better places to live (depending on your definition of course) are going to cost more.

Yes, the ROUTES have names. The freeways have numbers. The confusitory nature of the changing Route Names along the same freeways gave rise to almost all Southern Californians referring to the freeways by number with a "The" in front, and for some oddball reason, all Northern Californians opting for the royal Number with no "The."

Except for the very odd odd intersection where the 101 becomes the 134 if you travel in a straight line in one direction while the 170 becomes the 101 if you travel in a straight line in the other (with the added strangeness that, of the four possible direction changes here, there's no freeway interchange from the 101 east to the 170 north) ... ahem, except for that oddity, most numbers are consistent while staying on the same freeway ... and that's why the numbers gained dominance over the names.


But why in the world don't the numbers have "The" in NorCal??? Do most people there refer to themselves in the third person also??

And now, some useful advise.

It's not merely that major population centers are more expensive, but that the majorest population centers are along the coast. It's not expensive there merely because you can get to the pretty, pretty ocean ... but because the air is not considered breathably healthy once you are more than 20 miles inland.

The price to pay for the affordability of housing in such areas are a) the likelihood that you will commute 7 hours per day and see your affordable house only on weekends; and b) the likelihood that your lungs will fill with tar and gunk, your children will develop asthma and your chance of developing lung cancer is the same as if you smoked a pack per day.



As one who recently experienced something similar, I suspect your fascination with moving to California is based on your recent visit. I'm glad you're planning 5 years out, because cooler heads will prevail and your ultimate decision will be more grounded.

I love California and I understand why zillions of others do, too. But it's precisely because of those zillions of others that if I were moving somewhere today, it would never be California.

I shudder to think of how crowded it's going to be in 5 years ... and how tight the competition will be for living space where you can safely breathe the air. Alas, I figure I may have to finally abandon the Golden State of Once Earthly Paradise in 10 or 15.






.

And the 110, which, variously is the Harbor Freeway or the Pasadena Freeway.

Still no name for the 605? Perhaps the Samuel Beckett Freeway, given some of the landscape it passes through.

Since every interstate in the Bay Area except one ends in 80 I've long wondered by time has eroded the references down to just being the first number.

To further make it odd, the 101 Ventura is technically a North/South freeway (even though it is running almost perfectly East/West through the valley. Odd numbered highways are N/S whereas even numbered are E/W. So leading away from that interchange are two northbound, one southbound, one eastbound yet no westbound.

North of the 101 it is the Pasadena. South of the 101 it is the Harbor. The Pasadena Freeway is considered the first 'Freeway' in the United States.

Actually, it is called the San Gabriel River Freeway.
_____

What I believe has to be the shortest, or one of the shortest freeways in the world, the 90 Freeway is called the Marina Freeway. For those who aren't familiar with it, this is the freeway that intersects the 405 in Inglewood/Marina del Rey. Not counting the ends, there is just the intersection with the 405 and I believe one street worth of on and off ramps.

I hate the signs peppered throughout the Valley that direct you to the 101 North or South, which must confuse the heck out of less saavy people who know good and well they are traveling east or west.


The 605 has a name. It's just that name usage by the populace disappeared by the time that freeway got popular. It's the San Gabriel River Freeway.

Likewise, the newest SoCal freeway, the 105, is the Century Freeway. No one calls it that, or even knows its name.


Use of the names like "Santa Ana Freeway," "Ventura Freeway" are vestigal of another time, and will likely disappear within a generation.

Though, of course, "Ventura Freeway" has longevity via a song name. And the "San Diego Freeway" has longevity through infamousness. (Though I believe the term "The 405" is more often uttered with more dripping menace and dread.)




ETA: Kevy beat me to it on the name for the 605.

Yeah, it's really hard to tell you where to live if we don't know where you'll be working. It's not an area where you can just resolve to "drive across town" to work - unless you like 3-hour commutes, of course ;)

I have to second the vote of confidence for Redlands. I wouldn't live out there without a job in that direction, but if it was convenient, it's freaking cute with all the Victorian homes, etc. The 909 IS less expensive, but unless it's a convenient commute, it can be really far. And some areas of it... meh.

And nothing is referred to in miles. How far is Disneyland? About 30 minutes. How many miles? No idea.

So are Ralphs and Kroger


Thank you! I was just having this conversation with a friend in SF. When discussing the freeways up there I always said "the x" where x is the freeway. And he was so confused.

Are you thinking of the song Ventura Highway by America or is there another song? Just curious.

No, that's the one.

The one I haven't been able to stop singing in my head since I posted it. Bah.





(And yes, it's called "Ventura Highway" which ironically immortalizes the Ventura Freeway. Where they ever called highways here in California? Back east, they're called highways. Always by name (at least back in my day). Never even knew any of the route numbers.)

Where I grew up the linguistic difference between freeways and highways was pretty strong:

Freeways are non-stop. You have on ramps and off ramps. Highways were major roads that still have the occasional stoplight. So a single road (such as 101) might alternate between being a freeway and a highway.

Darn you people, with your earworms.

It really does matter where you work vs. where you live. For instance: I live in Hollywood, I work in West L.A. on the edge of Santa Monica. This is about 18 miles. This takes, on a good day, about 45 minutes. This takes, on a standard trafficky day, about 70 minutes. This takes, on the day before Thanksgiving, about 2.5 hours.

Earworms?

BTW Nephy: sorry that I contributed to the derailment of your thread with a silly freeway/highway/byway/toll road/insane traffic discussion.

I learnt sumthin gnu 2day

Sort of like the American "in the hospital" vs. the British "in hospital".

Ralphs is known elsewhere as Kroger, it's true. Interestingly, I think the same parent company also owns Food 4 Less.

My house to Honda Center (by Disneyland) (15 miles) at 5:30pm is an hour
Honda Center to home at 10pm is 20 minutes.

When I lived in Huntington Beach and worked by John Wayne Airport (about 13 miles) it took me 30-40 minutes to get to work, and an hour to get home.

After I moved south to Laguna (about 17 miles) it took me 20-30 minutes to get to work and 30 minutes to get home.

We lived in LA for about 10 years. Hollywood to Santa Monica & the 405 - half hour in the morning and about an hour to get back at night.

Culver City to Brentwood - about 7 miles took about 45 mins each way.

Culver City to Santa Monica (next to Santa Monica Airport) 6 miles took about 35 mins each way.

Culver City to Century City - 8 miles took about 30ish mins each way.

Culver City to Disneyland - 30 miles could take anywhere from 30 mins to hours.

I do have to say at least in LA if the freeway sucks there a zillion different surface street ways to get somewhere. In San Diego (at least where I live) this is almost impossible as none of the surface streets connect up they loop back to the freeway.

You know, it's not all that different out here in Utah... Surprisingly so. But that's mainly because we have only one major thoroughfare. When the Legacy Parkway/Highway/Whatever opens up, as well as some awesome public trans (of which I hope to partake!), things should get much better.

But, miles are more like miles here, more than they were in SoCal.

I agree. It also occurred to me that I have a plan and a dream to take Rose to all the Disney parks in the world- I can afford it here- but not if I come there.

No worries- let it flow willy nilly.

No. It's the other way around. Routes are numbered, and they keep the same number from begining to end. I-5 follows a number of different freeways and highways as it runs from the Canadian to the Mexican borders, for example.

Think of all the state routes that follow city streets. The route doesn't have the same street name from begining to end, because it follows several different streets. You often have to make right or left turns onto different streets to stay on the route.

The Interstate and California State Highway systems follow the same logic. Segments of freeway may be named, but those names are only associated with a route number, in many cases, because that route follows that freeway segment for a portion of its length.

With two Southern CA exceptions already noted: the "Hollywood" freeway refers to both a portion of the 101 AND the entire 170. And the "San Diego" freeway refers to both a portion of the I-5 AND the entire 405.

Redlands is a nice place, but it is miserably hot in the summer.

I hate inland. And, by inland, I mean anything East of the 405. ;)

Oh, did I fail to mention that, thanks to the oncoming Apocalypse, in five years, only camels and scorpions will be able to survive in Southern California from May thru October more than 5 miles from the ocean.

I can't survive 5 miles from the ocean for very long now!

Not an exceptions at all, but good examples of the fact that route numbers and freeway/highway/street names are two different things.

But people eventually found the numbers more pertinent to travel, so that's what won.

Route numbers didn't have that effect on streets. I've never once heard anyone refer to Santa Monica Boulevard as Route 2. (Or "The 2" or "Two.")

I don't remember which on-ramp it is, but there's one in the Valley that has all 4 directions marked to the 101. One direction, the signs say north/south, the other direction they say east/west.

I ran into this navigating on my one day in SD. I knew where I was, and where I wanted to go, but the streets didn't go there. I even knew where I ended up, and I could have found my way to Old Town from there. I wound up asking a blind guy for directions and he advised me to take the bus which turned out to be good advice.

Because the freeway system became so prominent in SoCal. There are many places in California (not to mention the rest of the US) where surface street routes are still called by the route number. When I was growing up in OC, Beach Blvd was always referred to as "Highway 39", and I can remember when PCH was just called "Highway 1". Just because the practice is no longer common does not mean it wasn't common in the past.

(ETA because I thought of this seconds after hitting "submit reply".)

When my parents talked about moving to California in the 50's, they talked about driving into LA on Route 66, and never mentioned the names of all the streets that comprised Route 66 in Southern California.

My dad and his family drove to CA on Route 66.

Bought him a great coffee table book about it.

One of these days I want to go back east, taking what's left of it.

Now I have an urge to watch Cars

Did someone already mention the need for a reliable van?

Not needed. I have a 2008 Honda accord with only 6k miles on it. Reliable transportation is not at issue.