Ta Ta Jesse Helms
 

Such an AMERICAN!

Hmmm. In response to Helms' death, I quote the surly Bette Davis:
;)

So sad. Such a great man.

Wait...

Is the the dead Bozo thread?

Jesse Helms vs The Gay Men's Choir
 

In with hate, out with love.
:D

That made my day!

Yay!! Less crap in the world. :D

It's a good day. He was a waste of oxygen.

I just got word that Jesse has gone where the goblins go.

While I have no particular love for Helms, I find him no less abhorrent than the womanizing drunken murderer Ted Kennedy, and in the thread regarding his cancer, while tempted, I thought it would be distasteful to take pleasure in the misfortune of others.

I find this thread to be distasteful. So, I won't read it.

Why is death a misfortune? It happens to all of us. I'm glad that there's a little less hate in the world.

Haha! Oh wait, he is serious? So, Scaeagles was expecting a loving tribute to a racist homophobe? And how is it misfortune? He died from old age. I should have such misfortune. I am only sorry Helms wasn't hit by a bus. If its any consolation, Scaeagles, old boy, Helms is certainly suffering now.

Isn't the God of the bible a racist homophobe? Maybe they're partying?

May he spend the rest of eternity being pursued by Cleopatra Jones, Superfly, Shaft, Rudy Ray Moore and Pam Grier as Coffy.
May he be caught naked in a bathhouse with Ru Paul in front of Billy Graham.
May the late, great Shirl and Rerun kick his ass repeatedly forever.
May he be strapped to a chair and forced to watch an endless loop of Roots and Norman is That You?

Psst....he's not reading this thread anymore. He's going to hold out for the Ted is Dead thread, and then post a moving tribute to the last of the Kennedy brothers. ;)

You do not have to believe in the divinity of Jesus to know the answer. But in case there is any lingering confusion on this point -- He was not.

So why is this here instead of in the Daily Grind where most contentious stuff is?

Other than that- I have nothing to say since I know almost nothing about him.

How about not grave dancing? I believe that is what he (and I) am most put off by.

Celebrating someone's death is kinda, well, crappy. Even if that person was, well, crappy.

Hmm, I only hope the grave dancing continues long into the night.

Just to clarify my own post - it wasn't the news of Helms' demise that made my day - it was the previous video post, which portrayed a gay men's choir trying to confront the then-living senator with a cheerfully sung mesage of love. It was a very good example of out-classing your adversary. (It was also a rare example of a Michael Moore stunt that did not make me cringe.)

I don't blame anyone for thinking the world a better place without the kind of ignorance and proud bigotry Helms defiantly stood for. Unfortunately, the passing of one person doesn't in itself change much of anything at all, and, as Helms had slipped into dementia well before his death, it can't really be said that the level of intolerance is any different at all today as a result of his departure.

As for celebrating a death or not, well, I agree that shadenfreude is unseemly. Is his death tragic? I think the most tragic deaths are the ones in which a life ended without a person growing or achieving something. For all I know, Helms may have stood up for the underdog somewhere along the line. He did soften his stance on AIDS assistance to other countries. I hope he gained some perspective on race equality and gender issues in his post-senate years, but I have no way of knowing. (And the issue is clouded by his faculties having faded away slowly.) But he said and did things in his life that ensure his name is going to be synonymous with attitudes that are fast falling into well-deserved ignominy.

But, wise or foolish, rich or poor, we are all going to be equal someday.

:snap: :snap: :snap:

Me too! Is it grave dancing if I say that I think he was a jackhole? I am sorry for his family, but I am so glad I will never have to hear him spewing any new messages of hate and intolerance.

Death is not a misfortune to the dead person, it is a misfortune to the loved ones of the deceased. Everyone, no matter how hateful or mean, is important to somebody, somewhere. But one person's misfortune is another person's good fortune, and I am glad this man has gone to the goblins.

What is it about the death of assh*le that brings out the philosopher in us? The man was a sh*t. Helms made no attempt to repent or feel sorry for his words and deeds. I have no pity for this man. I am glad he is gone. I think its funny that a few here feel the need to shame others into feeling bad for expressing relief at the man's death. KB -- I don't tell you how to feel, so you certainly do not need to tell me how I should feel.

Besides, what better day for Helms to die -- Independence day.

Since you quoted me, I have to wonder if you found my post to be such an admonishment. If so, not so. Read it again carefully. (It's neither grave-dancing nor finger-wagging. It's just some thoughts inspired by the other posts.) If not, OK. Doesn't matter much either way. There really isn't a whole lot more to be gained from this topic, most likely.

Although I philosophically agree with Flippy, Helms' passing inspires in me the same feeling of joy as the Munchkins expressed when the Witch got taken out.

Just sayin'.

Lest I be thought TOO philosophical, my parting line was nothing more than a poor paraphrase of an epigram by William Makepeace Thackery, from BARRY LYNDON. I try not to miss an opportunity to reference a Kubrick film.

Which, in this case, could also reference Dr. Strangelove.

Helms was a racist, homophobic a$s. What is one supposed to say after someone dreadful like this dies? Oh, he was just a good 'ol boy, it was just his way. Oy.
Heck, if you want to cut down Ted Kennedy and laugh at his cancer, go for it. Who cares? If that's how you feel, feel it!

I hear grave dancing can be a very effective cardio workout.

While cancer is no laughing matter, it does shed some light on Ted Kennedy's abnormally large head...which, unlike his brothers, has proven to be remarkably less than bullet-worthy.

As for grave dancing...Jesse Helms deserves a Coachella-sized Lord of the Dance revival while the earth is still fresh.

Sometimes a quote is just a quote, though I hear a Kubrick quote is worth extra points.

There is in fact, special Kubrick Mojo

There are few politicians in America who I have actively despised more than Jesse Helms. His public stance on many things was harmful to others. I celebrated the day he left office and, while I'm not celebrating his death, I feel it is SUPREMELY important to remember (and despise) him for his ignorance so that others don't follow in his same ignorant and despicable footsteps.

While I can truthfully say I am not saddened by his death, neither am I celebrating it. I do, however, hope he is "enjoying" his first night in the special place in hell that was made just for him.

I am just a little sad that the old guard of racist homophobe is being replaced by a younger, much slicker version.

At least Helms' red neck was easy to spot.

Will the new bigotry be as easy to recognize and reveal as Ann Coulter's Adam's Apple?

Doesn't hell seem just a bit like a human invention? How else would we feel a sense of justice? Bad people die and that's the end? Impossible! Bring on divine suffering. Let us never transcend our fear that life is ultimately pointless.

Oh goodness yes. One of the worst human inventions ever. But I think you've put the proverbial finger on why people seem to need the idea.

Sometimes, the only way you can avoid saying something unkind about someone is to say nothing at all. I'm sorry for his family's loss and I'll leave it at that.

I won't. His family doesn't read the LoT. He was a public figure, deserving of all the scorn the world may want to heap upon him.

I can understand the notion that grave dancing is unseemly. If you feel that way, don't do it yourself. But learn the lesson of the unfortunate Helms, and leave others to do and be as they please, and not as YOU would have it.

He was a POS and the world is a better place without him. Now if Teddy will just die too we can all breath a tiny sigh of relief.

It's a shame I don't believe in hell, 'cuz I love the idea of those two d-bags arguing over how to destroy the country quicker while being butt-raped by Saddam and Satan.

I still hope he spends his afterliferlife as Shirl's La-Z-boy recliner.

He would probably like that. I bet the man was secretly gay...and black.

If he wasn't...he is now.

Thank you for this post.

Y'all should join the Westboro Baptist Church. You have very similar belief systems.

:confused:

Sorry, I don't get the reference.

(I tried to Mojo you, but it wouldn't let me.)

You are absolutely right. Grave dancing aside, the lesson must be learned, else those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

The only way to belong to that church is to be in Fred Phelps' family.

I see no merit in defending someone who is a racist and a homophobe. The man opposed federal funding for AIDS research in the 80's. While my friends were dying, he was avidly and rabidly attacking them.

Here are some winning quotes:
Oh, yes. Let's defend him.
F*ck Jesse Helms.

The is a huge difference between not defending someone and his actions vs. celebrating a death.

Those who are celebrating JH's death are exercising the same rights as the Westboro Baptist Church exercise with their inane protests of homosexuals. I find it to be quite the ironic comparison.

Jesse Helms's actions in life were aberrant. That, IMO, does not make it okay to celebrate a person's death.

I just don't see celebrating less hatred in the world as a bad thing, sorry.

There is a difference between Phelps and people who applaud the death of a racist and homophobic bigot.

The targets of Helms' hatred aren't going to protest at his funeral.

Isn't irony a kick in the pants? I would like to be spared the 'you should know better than that' speech and the 'in with hate out with love' crap. I'm ticked. I'll be ticked with tap shoes, thank you.

I dislike this whole notion that someone is untouchable after they are dead. The man left a hateful legacy behind him. I don't think people should forget that legacy.

And for the record, I find Phelps laughable. He strengthens the gay community's point, by displaying it in a big way in the media, that some churches are despicable.

Sorry, KB, I'm glad he's dead. If that makes me a small man, then sign me up for a Baby Gap credit card.

Sorry Kevy, I have to agree with everyone else. While I'm not celebrating his death, I am glad he is finally gone.

I find the comparison to Fred Phelps and his clan to be rather insulting. Relief at the death of someone who, by his actions and words, proved himself to be truly evil does not make one evil in return. Should people not have been happy when Hitler died? (And no I did not just invoke Godwin's Law. It's a legitimate question.) By your logic, they shouldn't have.

I met a transgendered activist at Harvard. When I asked her if she gets mad at these idiot lawmakers, she said something like this to me:
"Their children's children will know how hateful they were. Their children's children will know they lied to forward a horrible agenda."
That statement is so freakin' profound to me. Why?
ie.
Jesse Helms has a gay granddaugher, Jennifer Knox.
Rabid racist Strom Thurmond fathered a child with a black teenage maid.
Yeah irony is fascinating, isn't it?

We kept Helms in fancy shoes and hookers for thirty years on OUR DIME. I do believe that buys us - all of us - some "Glad you're gone" bonus miles.

I cite Freedom of speech and all that. If he got to repeatedly say in the hallowed halls of congress that "negroes and gays" were subhuman while we paid his expense account (since the 70s!), then I think the least the guy owes us is an all-black, all-male graveside revival of Lambada: The Forbidden Dance, with an encore of Yankee Doodle Dandy, for patriotism's sake.

And that's me holding back.

As far as values go, I don't think anyone on this board is capable of 1 iota of the hate that filled that not-quite-human politician's heart every day of his worthless life.

There are good guys and bad guys. It's ok to feel good when a bad guy dies.

Dance away, GC. I'm right there with you.

To the contrary.

When the Westboro Baptist Church exercise with their inane protests of homosexuals, they are protesting gays rights as citizens, and their right to marriage.

No one here is suggesting that Helms should not be allowed to die. No one here is suggesting that he shouldn't be afforded the same funeral service as other citizens, and not be recognized as legally dead (as opposed to legally wed) in the eyes of the government.

I can't speak for everyone...but I'm glad to see 2008 as his end date.
As far as my good friend Karma is concerned, it should have happened a lot sooner.

Happy birthday, America.

Well, I never heard of the man before today.

I listened to about 3 broadcasts of his "speeches"

This gentleman was no gentleman, and really shouldn't talk that way. As it turns out, now he can't.

I think that's what I did.

I didn't say anything about anyone else?

Me give Tonto heap big mojo.

MBC, those quotes of mine were directed to Kevy, not you.


There's nothing wrong with your remarkable restraint and acting with what you consider civility and decorum, and as you see fit.


And Boss Radio went on to eloquently and forcefully state the case for those who want to celebrate the occasion or take the opportunity to speak ill of the dead in this case.



So all's good.






If Kevy would just mind his own business. :p

Funniest line EVER.

Last month, I was saddened to learn that the great Harvey Korman had died. Yesterday, when I heard that Helms (it hurts for me to type his first name) kicked it, the sound of Korman as the Great Gazoo rings in my ears:

"Bye bye, dum dum."

Helms caused enough hate and grief in his life- I think it's only right that his death bring a little joy into the world. (It's all about balance, right?). Hey, I want a BGCC also!:D

Whew! What is it about grave dancing that makes a man have a powerful thirst?

You need some Gravorade!

Gravy flavored Powerade? :eek:

Did someone say Crystal Gravy?

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/eced238d0f

I celebrated the day he left office. I could hardly care less that he has now died.

Considering that your post appeared right after mine, I assumed otherwise. Thanks for the clarification.

Grave Dancing? I think we should throw a fücking White Party on the dirt which will soon cover his bloated, maggot infected corpse! And every year after we should have an inter-racial homosexual orgy to commemorate the fact that this sub-human piece of shït is no longer drawing breath.

What an irony, then, that the one person on the LoT who comes complete with interracial homosexual characteristics will not be invited to this particular annual orgy. :p

Visible Szczerbiak Mojo. Sorry to those that think gravedancing is wrong (we had this same discussion when Jerry Falwell died), but horrible people who did horrible things in real life deserve to be remembered for those things. He died without ever seeing the error of his ways, or how hurtful and evil his actions/words were. So yes, I'm happy that a person like that is no longer spreading his vomit among the human race.

You think that when Obama catches Osama and executes him, we'll be talking about how bad it is to gravedance? Sorry, no.

I agree with Kevy and others, so I guess I'm in the minority here. I understand why most of you disagree, but this is how I was raised. I don't dispute that his political, social, and moral views were completely reprehensible. But, the way I convey that is to simply ignore his passing and refuse to give him any more airtime - as he certainly doesn't deserve it. I don't dance on his grave because he's not worth my notice, and to do so drops me to his level. So, other than contributing a bit of public support for Kevy's position (and a few others too - I didn't read carefully), this is the last bit of energy I shall waste on this particular (unworthy) subject.

Unfortunately he DOES deserve airtime -- as an example of reprehensible behaviour. A "what not to do". That's where we disagree. When a notable person who did bad things dies, he/she deserves to be re-vilified by history, if only to try and stop the "history repeats itself" problem.

I can see the arguments on both sides.

Gravedancing feels wrong as it goes against so much of what we were taught is acceptable in this society.

On the other hand...

If we as a society never, ever danced on the grave of an evil person, what would we teach our children about WWII? So I do buy Cherny's argument about the utility of putting the societal smackdown on some people.

What we were TAUGHT is acceptable in this society???


Whoa, hold on there ... because so much of what the deliciously departed spewed was, at one time, what was taught as acceptable in this society.


Furthermore, I don't feel the manners-based motto of 'Don't Speak Ill of the Dead' was ever applicable to public figures.

If a person chooses to live their lives in such a way- and in such a public way- then I have no problem taking issue with them after they're gone. They may be dead, but the hate and vitriol they spread is still hanging around.

To paraphrase Aunt Pearl Burras (of Greater Tuna)

“I said I’d sing over your dead body, and Jesse, I feel a song coming on!”

To paraphrase MP, bye bye dum dum.

I'm sure he had his good points somewhere, I feel sad for his family since they were the one's who saw his humane side. I never did, I only saw the public figure.

As a public figure, he was reprehensible and had so many bad qualities and beliefs he was more than proud to display and venom to spew forth. I did not and do not miss him in the public forum, in fact, I had not given him a thought in years. I hope he can make his peace with the universe and next time he comes back for another round, he's learned something and will be better behaved next time.

Agreed.

We need a poll

Would that be a poll-dance? Har har har.

I'm not ever sure I was "taught" that grave dancing is a bad thing. I DO know I was taught that gay people are sinners and black people are not to be trusted. As a result of my teachings, I have chosen to think for myself and, if I see reprehensible behavior - past of present - of a person either living or dead, I have no qualms about speaking out about it. Lest we forget.

Why are you getting mad at me? I'm not in any way defending him or his life... just the opinions of those who are uncomfortable with the concept of grave dancing. And then in the next breath, I laid out why it may be warranted in this case. I even invoked Godwin's Law with a subtle comparison to Hitler for crying out loud!

It's what he's good at ;)

I don't think remembering the horrible things he said, did and believed and hoping that a part of the spreading of those beliefs is the same thing as grave dancing.

The man did and said horrible things. I truly hope that a part of this country's hate machine died with him. But I am certainly not going to go "woohoo! someone died, let's party!"

I don't see bin Laden and Helms as the same. But until we catch bin Laden I can't say how I will react. I don't recall grave dancing when Saddam was executed.

Goonie, you could have read "whoa" in a Bill & Ted manner if you so chose. I'm not mad at you. Whoa is a "hold-on-there" term, just used to make my point (echoed eloquently by Not Afraid and her real-life examples) that the reasoning in your first paragraph was stuff I disagreed with. But nothing I wrote was set down in anger.


I'll tell you what I'm good at ... I'm good at being completely misunderstood. :p

Hey buddy, what the hell's that supposed to mean ?









:p

An op-ed surfaced on CNN.com this morning.
This is a quote from it:
Source

That's well said. Those men did despicable things in their lives. Some of it was just how it was in those times. None of it needed to carry on to recent days.

They're all gone now and hopefully some hatred died with them.

"Now they are joined in the conservative (READ: WHITES ONLY) wing of heaven by former Sen. Jesse Helms..."

Isn't heaven entirely whites only? Puffy clouds, angel gowns, even wings? All White. It's the Ultimate White Party ... except that all the homos are in hell, where white is worn only by the Klan.

This tangent reminds me of H's take on the last room in IASW: "Children of all nations - united in death."

Yeah, who does people's hair in Heaven?

Good Lord- not me! Especially not for the likes of Helms and Co. Now....if we're talking Jim Morrison or Michael Hutchence- oh, yeah.:)

No, no, dear. You'll be with us... down there. More fun, really.
:D

Exactly. Where do you think Jim Morrison and Michael Hutchence are? ;)

Boy, when Huckabee misspeaks he really does it good.

I should just move on, but I won't.

Is sticking to one's guns, no matter if it hurts an entire race, something to admire in someone? I find much more admiration for someone who can say, 'I've thought about it, and I am wrong' than someone who says, 'I am right no matter what anyone says, I can make no errors ever'.

I love people who stick to their guns, but when someone's wrong they're wrong. And while they run unstoppable downhill fueled by their own ill-conceived convictions, I'll wait for them to fall. And excuse my laughing when they do.

I know what it's like to be in someone else's shoes. And for that fact alone, I am a better man than the late Jesse Helms ever was.

BD: I know what you mean - he was referring to someone who makes a policy or standpoint and then sticks with it, not changing horses midstream. That I get.

As GC pointed out, I also hope Obama has the grace to be able to change his point of view if people point out errors (especially huge ones like JH's) in his views.

There are pros and cons to sticking to one's convictions. In some cases it is admirable. In other cases, it is not.

"Sticking to one's convictions" can be just another way of saying "pigheaded".

Helms, and many others, could have learned a lesson from Robert Byrd.

...and Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
..and a stone came flying over the heads of the crowd and struck hard and true.
...Jesus turned and said "Mum, you can be so annoying at times."

He hung up his robes, didn't he? Good for him.

What a freaking moronic thing for Huckabee to have said. Especially in light of recent political gaffes.


Wasn't it scant weeks agot that Hillary Clinton got in trouble for retardely invoking the assassination of Robert Kennedy? I truly believe she was simply trying to remind everyone that many nomination battles went on in June ... and how many such June nomination campaigns are going to be remembered any where near as much as the one where a famous pol got assassinated in June?


But, considering her opponent is black, it was a stupid thing to say ... because it was too connected with political assassination.


Huckabee is a retard. Helms' firm convictions are too connected with hate and intolerance. What a maroon.

We've been nearly eight years with someone who thinks he's sticking to his guns- look where we're at. I know of many other people who did the same, and it didn't work out very well for them either. (Not mentioning names, as Godwin's will kick in). There's something to be said for being willing to see the shades of grey in life and adjusting ones thinking when appropriate.

Say what you will about Hitler . . .

And Bopper, whatever one might theoretically be able to say about Helms's convictions on issues other than race, in the real world, you can't compliment Helms and criticize Obama in the same sentence without sending the message that it's okay not to like black people.

I forget the name (sorry), but some dude who's the head of the North Carolina Dept. of Agriculture resigned rather than fly the flag at half-staff in honor of thankfully departed Jesse Helms.


Now THAT's sticking to your guns when appropriate and when there's personal sacrifice involved.


Mojo to, um, the guy whose name I forget.

His name is L.F. Eason III. He wasn't the head of the NCDoA, rather, he is the director of the state Standards Laboratory. But great story none-the-less.

I don't know. Seems like a silly battle to end your career on.

I'd be perfectly happy to see Helms unacknowledged, but it is a pretty standard fact of life that things like this are going to happen. It isn't like he was told he needed to personally lower the flag and then stand under it telling everybody how sad he was at Helm's passing.

It is cool that if he feels it that important he was willing to make the sacrifice. It just seems a bit foolish to me that he'd consider it that important.

I would have just flown the Southern Cross at half-staff.

Thanks for the correction, Kevy. Well, all the more important for Eason to uphold some Standards, eh?

OK now for some reason I'm picturing him retiring to his ranch, Eason West, which is conveniently located next to Upson Downs. It's completely restricted!

And yes, if you get that reference, you may be a closet queen. :D :cool:

visible LB mojo, I'm LMAO!

I want to preface my reply: Helms was despicable, and I don't really have a problem with people who are grave-dancing.

But, in a devil's-advocate kind of way, some of you bristled at the parallel between Helms' positions and yours. "He was evil - it's OK to grave-dance if the deceased was evil." Well, Helms thought homosexuals were evil; was it OK if he badmouthed them? In his (obviously poisonous and addled) mind, what he was saying was probably OK.

Not all homosexuals are evil. He hated all gay people. That's the distinction. He caused harm to the gay community through his hate speech and blocking AIDS related bills. Besides cover his house with a giant condom, the gay community has not caused any harm to him or his family for him to come to his conclusion. He didn't need any proof to come to his conclusion. Helms, in turn, has left a trail of hate behind him.
I'm all for seeing things through his eyes, but I can't find any rationale in hating an entire group of people.

ETA: I found some footage of Act Up putting the condom over his house. Click here.

Apparently it was OK. I mean, how long was he in the Senate? 30 f*cking years!

OMG that condom footage is GREAT!!!

Well, yes, and I quite agree. But my point is: he didn't. He thought that just by being engaging in homosexual activity, they were doing evil. I'm certainly not defending his point of view - just pointing out that not much can be gained by the "OK to talk **** about the evil" argument. Evil is in the eye of the beholder, and he believed his POV just as strongly as you believe yours.

So I'm not going to go by the "OK to talk **** about the evil" rule - I'm going to go by my person rule: be respectful but honest. So: honestly and respectfully, Mr. Helms, we always disagreed and the things you said made me angry. I'm not mourning your death but I'm not celebrating it either.

Just Queen, honey... Closets ain't got nothing to do with it!

Oh, the women who love musicals aren't necessarily gay. (But we're not necessarily a 0 on the Kinsey.)

Nothing can be gained? The one thing that can be gained is the reminding people (be it four days later or four years later) of what a scumbag this guy was. There's no way I would want history to remember him as some sort of hero. The country can move forward when we identify where we went wrong in the past and not make the same mistakes again. If Helms is that identifier, then so be it.

What exactly has Helms done to earn your respect? Or is it the thinking that one should be respectful of the dead? (BTW, I'm not mad at LSPE, I am challenging her stance.) He hasn't earned my respect.

You said "honey".
:D

Mr. Upson: Hooonnneeeeeeyyy...

I've never had a daqueri made with honey, how ever did you think of it?

Where is little Glory?

She never said that Helms earned her respect. All she's saying is that saying you are justified in what you say because "he's evil" is circular logic that's not going to convince anyone of anything. YOU think he's evil, that does not make it any more true than the fact that HE believed you're evil for being homosexual.

Well, for starters, I try - often fail, but try - to treat everyone with respect because in my personal belief system (nothing specific, just what I've cobbled together. DIY religion!) it's important to not put bad energy out into the universe. Helms and others have put enough out there already. Did you see anything wrong with my statement? I said I disagree with the man, and that he made me angry, and that I don't mourn his death. It's my prerogative not to celebrate it if I choose - just as it's yours to choose to celebrate it.

Absolutely, we should sing to the rooftops about how people made it difficult for human progress, and we should find ways to reach higher, better places as new generations grow. I think talking about Helms and his cohorts is a very good way to do that. I just am noting that calling him "evil" and using that as reasoning to speak out isn't all that different from him calling you evil, GC. You're both doing things that each other finds despicable. And calling each other evil isn't a good way to change people's minds, in my experience.

Call me an idealist, call me naive - but I think that the best way through any conflict, be it Helms v. Gay Multiracial Babies or the Iraq war, is to strive to listen to what the other side is saying and accept it as their core belief. And then - and this is the key - to prove to them, personally, that things are different than they might think. No, we can't exactly do that to Helms now that he's gone, or even when he was alive, be it because he was so fundamental that it wouldn't help, or we wouldn't have had the access.

But we have to start small. Ripples echo and grow.

I grew up with a homophobic mom and a gay best friend. She was kind to him, but for a long time she believed that the act of gay sex was morally wrong. I started small. Over years we discussed my gay friends and the very supportive happy gay relationships I've witnessed. I got her to a place where she understood that if a gay couple were committed or married, it wouldn't be any different than if a straight couple were. She's learned not to fear or pity or pray for "the gay." Because there's nothing wrong with it.

Yep, Helms did terrible things in the name of his own moral code. And I don't appreciate it one bit. Still, I'm simply not going to use the word "celebrate" in this context. Instead, I'm going to teach my children to love and respect others - and I'm going to try to do that by example. And I'm going to try to use personal examples to demonstrate to the frightened people around me that gay people/Muslim people/black people/yes, even conservative people... are different than their fears might lead them to believe.

LSPE ~ I see what you are saying. I found that to be such an eloquent post.
:)

Thank you. And I hope I made it clear enough - I'm not dissing your prerogative. If, you know, whatever you're doing or saying in response to Helms' death helps you, I don't begrudge that at all. Different strokes, different folks, and so on. Now let's vacuum up the goldfish. (Wait, wasn't that Nell?)

Crystal. And, by the way, "naive" is not a word I would use to describe you.
:)

And yet, it's soooo sweet..... Whatever do you use?


(Sorry for the continuation of the Auntie Mame derailing, but I just couldn't resist.)

"Honnneeeyyyyyyyyy..."
That man's delivery of that line was awesome. Funny and creepy all at the same time.

James Meredith



...oh yeah, and he's black.

Oh gosh, you're right! Oh Em Gee! Jesse Helms is a saint.

Nice hyperbole, but not what I posted.

While that's an interesting tidbit, I sincerely hope that isn't being used as some sort of defense for Jesse Helms (i.e. but he was nice to a black guy, so he wasn't ALL bad). Evil people don't make evil decisions every single time.

So out of sincere curiosity... I don't understand the comment at the end, in relation to why it was posted.

I certainly hope you are not expecting to put me on the defensive on the issue of Jesse Helms.

As for my post- I thought it interesting to point out. There is much more out there that points to the fact that the man was not a racist- most of which I will not bother posting because I am not interested in fighting people on what sources I find.

I offered no defense- just a bit of information that starts to deflate this idea that the man was an unabashed racist. I can find no such information that does the same for his view of gay people- sadly. Though I would not call him "evil" - but then I save such terms for people who commit far more heinous acts than his.

Have a splendid day!

That he was black? Because the quote does not refer to his skin color and I am unsure who will bother to click the link to see his picture.

Nothing more than that.

I guess I'm unclear as well. He was a black man who worked for Helms. Therefore Helms is not a racist?

I worked for a man who was a misogynist. There was no questions about his views. I don't think his stance as a misogynist was obiliterated because he hired me.

Well, there are lots of people who go break the ranks with their race, or cultural group. Those people are always embraced by haters to help show that they're not racist (sexist, homophobic, whatever). Somehow the argument that "I'm not against black people, just civil rights. See! There's a black person against civil rights," doesn't play in my book.

There are plenty of Jews who are anti-Zionist (I can think of one or two close friends on this board). They're entitled to their opinion, but as soon as they're embraced by Hamas, a red flag goes up.

Same goes for anti-feminists, like Phyllis Schlafly.

I'm not saying that Nephy was overtly trying to make Jesse Helms look like less of an azzhole, it's just that when I read it, that's the impression I got. The fact that she chose to post about a black man who worked for Helms in a thread about how Helms was a racist creep threw me off.

Helms was a creep.

Nothing more than that.

I do not join nor approve of the grave dancing. However I have not insulted those who did-
However-I find a certain amount of irony in the amount of hate condemning a man for the same.

I find some of these items of interest, anecdotal I am certain- but perhaps it punctures a few holes in the "Helms was evil" meme-

I also offer no defense where he was in fact- wrong. As people often are-

Source cited- and will be villified and dismissed I would expect)

Source

Was he WRONG on many issues- yes. Especially on the issues of gays and AIDS- and not one of you with ANY honesty can tell me I support or approve of his stance on homosexuals. Don't even try!

However- I do not think he lives up to the level of evil- but perhaps that is because my definition is different than many of yours.

Bottom line- no defense- just other information. If this thread was purely for the joy of dancing about his death perhaps it does not belong in a forum where discussion is par for the course?

Again... Just because someone has some good qualities does not - any any way - forgive or lessen the evil they have done.

***WARNING*** Godwin's Law is about to be invoked:

Hitler loved dogs. Does that make what he did ok in your eyes too?

I'm on the side of "why are we gravedancing?"

He's dead. Never liked him. So?

Really? So if someone does something wrong, nothing good they do redeems their errors? Such as Helms work wth Bono in relations to AIDS in Africa? No redemptive value because he did not totally capitulate all of his views to align with yours?

When you can find where I said everything he did was "ok" this question may have merit.

The man was wrong. He was not evil- at least by my definition.

Nephy, is, of course, correct. Helms was a man. He did some good things and his family and many conservatives liked, even loved him.

Here are some quotes from him.

"The New York Times and Washington Post are both infested with homosexuals themselves. Just about every person down there is a homosexual or lesbian."

"To rob the Negro of his reputation of thinking through a problem in his own fashion is about the same as trying to pretend that he doesn't have a natural instinct for rhythm and for singing and dancing." (Helms responding in 1956 to criticism that a fictional black character in his newspaper column was offensive.)

"Homosexuals are weak, morally sick wretches."

"They should ask their parents if it would be all right for their son or daughter to marry a Negro." (In response to Duke University students holding a vigil after Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated, 1968)


"All Latins are volatile people. Hence, I was not surprised at the volatile reaction." (After Mexicans protested his visit in 1986)


Let's not dance on the grave of Jesse Helms. He was, in many ways, a little man. A small man with hateful notions. A teeny tiny insignificant guy, whose loudest voice was reserved for the worst of ideas. And now that sad, little, angry, pathetic, and ignorant voice has been silenced.
Goodnight, dum dum.

*sigh*

Those who are committed to reveling in hatred for him and joy in his death will not be able to see anything but the wrong things he did.

I would love to request that this thread be moved to the Grind or Parking Lot- but as it likely will not be I will simply stay out of the way of the dancers.

"*sigh*"????

*fart*

Famous people leave legacies. Often, upon their death, their legacy is reviewed critically. In the case of Senator Helms most agree that his hateful speech and dangerous "ideas" far outweighed the good he left behind.

The people who are happy that Helms has no more opportunities to spew hate are the same people who saw him as hateful during his life. They're not "grave dancing," they're reminding the current and future generation of politicians what is inappropriate and unacceptable. Helms' type of hate politics should never be tolerated.

It's a matter of degree. If those bad things they do are truly evil, then it might. Helms was a truly evil man - evil in his words and deeds. No amount of incidental good deeds are going to change that.

And if you can not see that what he stood for is wrong, then I feel very sorry for you.

I don't have hatred for him, nor am I grave dancing. I don't see any good that came from his life, except maybe to serve as a warning to others who consider intolerance acceptable.

Why don't you just ignore the thread then.

I've no appreciation for the man, but I'm going to change JW's quote to illustrate the circular logic of finger-pointing about personal moral codes.

We're never going to change anyone's minds with this argument - it's a deadlock where both sides believes the other is wrong. If repeating loudly that Helms was TEH EVIL and you're glad he's dead makes you feel better today, then have at. But I don't think it's going to help the world understand anything differently.

To Nephy's defense, she probably wasn't talking about you... nor me, and I really didn't like the man. Nothing good to say, so I've stayed quiet.

I think that's what she said she would do, you know, stay out of the way of the dancers. I've been wondering why this wasn't in Daily Grind, or Parking LoT in the first place. It matters little to me, so I've done nothing about it.

I suspect your hatred of the man has impaired your ability to read what I said. I said repeatedly he stood for many things I do agree are wrong- but I do not agree that everything he did and believed was evil.

It's a disagreement of degree JW- I have no need of pity.

I just said I would- why the snark? And before you justify the snark by commenting on the fact that I returned to the thread- I will tell you I only came back to see what LSPE had posted- because I find her posts to be excellent and worthy of entering even a thread such as this.

Well stated-

Not that I should need defense ;) but no, my comments were no more pointed than lets say....a soft fluffy tribble.

...and thanks, nonetheless.

So....how many evil things does one have to do to cross the line, then? No one is 100% good or evil. So he did one good thing, great, cross off one of the bad things he said on the list mousepod posted. Is it even worth mentioning when so many bad things remain?

Someone who thinks like Helms might say that, but it's a terrible analogy. Gays having gay sex hurts no one. The things Helms and is ilk said and did (and continue to say and do) are very damaging. I find comparing the two to be very insulting.

I said before that I do not celebrate his death. I'm not grave dancing. But I refuse to stop speaking out against the evils he did just because he's now dead. Death gives no one a free pass to redemption.

It is not hatred to oppose that which is wrong. I do not feel hatred for him, only disgust.

And yes, I do believe he was evil. He had a black and hate filled soul. The world is far better off without his ilk.

I do feel a great sadness that some here feel they must defend the man.

Oh, my. I'm certainly not defending the man. Not whatsoever. All along I've said I have always been angered by the many harmful things he's said. And that still is completely true.

What I am saying is certainly not in defense of him. And I similarly believe that there is nothing harmful about gay sex. But what I have said (several times now) I think that calling someone evil because their moral code is different than yours isn't going to get anyone anywhere. It will ruin any chance of proving to them, directly and through personal interaction and example, that what they believe is untrue.

When people believe, firmly, in what a religious text has to say... well, there's a lot of things I could say about that, but doing so would be hurtful to the people in my life to whom religion brings much strength and comfort. What I will say is that they will likely believe it until something or someone real and in front of them changes their minds. All of us has the power to be that person - to change people's minds through positive action and honesty and kindness.

You discounting someone's religious beliefs (and in many cases, homophobia stems from a religious belief) is doing exactly what they're terrified of. They're terrified of their own little world coming crumbling down. But your love for your partner isn't going to crumble anyone's world - you know that, I know that. Anyone who sees it, really sees it, knows it too.

I'm not saying that homophobia deserves to be excused; I'm saying quite the opposite. I'm saying we need to change this world for the better, by showing people that love is love, in any form it takes. Honestly - because I believe in a higher power - I believe that love is divine. And I've spent a lot of time trying to show people that relationships like MBC's, for instance, or yours, are every bit as beautiful and divine as mine is. But discounting someone's religious beliefs - shutting them down before you even get the chance to share your love with them - isn't actually going to accomplish that.

Nowhere am I asking you to stop speaking out against the ways he harmed our society. But if any of us are going to make a difference in this conservative war against your rights, it's not going to be by telling each other how evil he was. Because that's never going to convince the legions of frightened (and in my opinion, dreadfully misguided) people who are still alive, who believe what he believed. Because, in that manner of circular logic, you're telling them they're evil, they're telling you you're evil. Deadlock. If we sit down with that uncle who's homophobic, that coworker who doesn't understand, that child who needs to know the truth... THAT is how we can make people understand.

I don't celebrate him. I don't feel hatred. I don't even feel disgust. I feel a deep pity for the man, who lived his life without really knowing the full beauty of it. What a sad, limited person, who never got to experience the peace and love that is possible. How terrible that he never made a personal connection that helped him change his mind.

When people like Helms, powered by his sort of thinking whether it be of the Bible or not, are using their influence to cause harm to anyone I can't sit there and say that spreading love and feeling sorry for them is effective.

The more the gay community shies away or backs down from people willing to demonize them, the more these same people will keep doing it.
There is solid proof that Helms was wrong in his thinking. All gays are despicable and bad. Blacks are less equal than whites. etc. That is enough to call him a flawed individual for thinking that way.

People tell me I should be tolerant of people like him because that what his religion teaches him. I say I don't need to be tolerant of anyone who justifies harming an entire group of people and then frees himself/herself of accountability because 'God told them so'. Don't hide behind a Bible after you just hit me with it, take ownership of your stupidity-inspired hate.

People like Helms use gays as a political football. It's maddening. Exploiting a non-issue to retain his job, political influence and the adoration of idiots like him. From everything from a kiss on a TV commercial, to a movie about true love between two men, to a famous comedienne coming out on TV and letting the world know she's okay with herself... All of these sweet and wonderfully positive things turned into something ugly for political benefit. I for one am fed up with it. ie. There are amazingly tragic things going on in our world and our president used gay marriage as his focus at one point. Ignore the war, the economy, Darfur and let's talk about homosexuals who want to be equal in the eyes of their state, their country.

I also see the frustration of many gay couples when the gay community and others expect them to be some sort of role model for the world. C'mon, Jim and George, show the world how normal two gay guys can be. Look at them, they're normal just like you straights. Isn't that great? Lots of gays and lesbians just want to be quiet people living their lives. It isn't their responsibility to be some sort of diplomats or counselors to straight or even closeted close-minded people.

Tolerance towards something that is biological like skin color, sexual orientation, etc should be a no-brainer. It's lack of education on the parts of people like Helms, Dobson, Phelps that make them wrong on their stance. I mean, listen to these guys talk, uneducated pricks. Hey, I'm no freakin' scholar, but thank goodness I have the brains to accept people for how they were born.

Being ignorant, uneducated, ill-informed is a choice. If you flaunt that choice in my face and try to pass it off as fact or devine providence, I am going to call you on it. And if people try to pass you of as a saint for doing it after death, I'm still going to call you on it for as long as I am alive.

Oh, I can imagine the frustration. But how will their minds ever change about the validity of gay people, gay marriage, gay rights... if we don't help them see it? Lots of black people wanted to live quiet lives AND have equal rights. But when it's time for social upheaval, if you want it to happen, you have to make it happen yourselves. I know - frustrating.

For the record, I don't think you have to be tolerant of his religious beliefs. Because - I've been ruminating on this for a few days now... there's a big difference between treating someone with respect and ACTUALLY respecting what they believe. I don't actually respect the opinion that homosexuality is immoral. But when discussing it with someone who does, I try to show them respect. Because I do understand that people's beliefs differ, and their beliefs are a part of them. It's often the only way to get through to someone who is ignorant. And yes, while they're choosing ignorance, a lot of them haven't been challenged to see things differently. (I know this was the case with my mother.) It's up to us to challenge them, whether we like it or not.

I wouldn't ever tell you to back down! On the contrary, I call us all to action.

Well said, LSPE.

I respect Billy Graham a great deal- I don't agree with many of his beliefs, but I do like the man. I will be saddened by his death. Helms was a despicable man, not just because of his beliefs but because of how he acted upon them and the pain he caused others as a result. I was not sad at his passing, and I did not, do not and never will have one speck of respect for him, alive or dead. I have a very hard time respecting anyone who is so willfully ignorant and so abusive with his power. The more people show that this is not acceptable (even to the point of refusing the usual post-mortem sanctification process) the more it will sink in to such individuals that they are not relevant in today's society, unless it is as some sort of pariah.

I do not respect any religious belief that promotes hatred and discrimination - hiding behind your religion to excuse your bigotry is despicable. I refuse to give a shred of respect to someone who does.

No one has a right to be respected by everyone, LSPE. Nor am I required to have respect for everyone - especially the likes of Senator Helms.

I've tried to stay out of this topic, not out of fear of repercussion, but simply because, although I fall more towards the unpopular side of the argument, I do understand and respect both sides.

I'm both a gay man and someone who literally despises any form of racism. Therefore, it should be obvious that I hold plenty of contempt for the way that Helms led his life. I truly believe the world would have been a better place without him or his ilk. I also believe that it is now a better place in his absence.

But I don't think that hatred is such a good thing to let manifest within. And I try very hard to never hate anyone. That doesn't mean that there aren't people that are deserving of it, and it doesn't mean that I am signaling approval of them by refusing to hate them. I detest just about everything that this man every stood for. I don't think that can be misconstrued as approval in any way, shape or form. I have zero good feelings for the man.

And while I think it is perfectly valid to discuss the life of this man, to condemn it (as I do) and to make very clear that his ideals are simply not acceptable, I just don't think that it does much good to, in essence, lower oneself to his level of hatred, just because it is cathartic.

I would much rather use my time to change someone's belief who is still alive and walking among us, because there isn't much I can do about ol' Jesse. I would rather live by example and try to have a positive impact. Because, I think that, in the long run, those efforts serve the cause better.

Slowly but surely, people are changing their attitudes towards homosexuality and racism. Slowly but surely, it becomes less acceptable by society with each year and with each generation. And the simple fact is that many of those who still harbor their antiquated views are dying out. And I can't help but think that this progress has been helped more by dialog than by calling a dead old bigot every name in the book.

And before anyone suggests that I just called him names, the fact remains: he was old, he is dead, and he made it painfully clear that he was a bigot. So that isn't really name-calling in my opinion, just a statement of fact.

And please note that I never once told anyone else what they should or shouldn't feel. I'm simply commenting on why I feel the way that I do.

Again, MBC, I do not hate Jesse helms. To find someone despicable, and to feel not a shred of sadness at their death, is not the same as hatred.

I'm really getting tired of the same response, over and over again.

...and I offered no defense.

I just offered the idea that while the man was not a saint, nor was he as simple a thing as a villain- and history will deal with his legacy- for good or bad.

He was someone's husband, father, grandfather.....and frankly excusing your own intolerance and hatred by pointing to someone else's is a poor deflection indeed.

(MBC- before the same mistake happens- my post is not direct comment to yours even though it follows)

Please explain then why it is hatred when Helms expressed it- but it is not when you do?

Was it because he had a larger stage from which to project those views?

Is hatred only measured by proportion to those who have access to it?

One more thing since I am off to bed.

JW- you and I came a long way from the beginning. I trust you do not think I believe that you are a "wretch" as Helms is quoted as believing-and I would be hurt if the thought even crossed your mind.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm just offering my thoughts to the thread. Is there something wrong with that?

<<<sigh>>>

I'm getting very tired of being told I'm full of hatred because I speak out for, and defend, Human dignity, civil rights, and common decency.

There are people in this world who cause great harm or advocate evil. Do you really think that speaking out against this is hatred?

It is evil to try and use your position to deny other Humans basic rights and dignity. Do you really think that speaking out against this is hatred?

It is evil to advocate the extermination of other Humans. Do you really think that speaking out against this is hatred?

I will always condemn those who support intolerance, hatred and violence, for these are the true evils. I will not apologize for it. I will not excuse it away because it is religious based, or because the person has other good qualities, or because they are dead.

I don't give a rats ass how many relatives Jesse helms had. It, in no way, lessens what he did.

Nephy,

All of us, in this life, must decide if they are on the side of humanity, or on the side of intolerance. Jesse made his choice, and I made mine.

No, but please do not presume to tell me what I do or do not hate.

And I never asked you to respect him, nor asserted that you should. How you feel about him and what you say about him is your prerogative. Different people respond to things in different ways. It's OK that you wouldn't choose to treat him with respect. It's OK that I do my best to treat everyone with respect regardless of whether they deserve it. One can respectfully disagree. It doesn't mean I condone anything, and it doesn't mean that I won't and haven't spent a terrific amount of energy throughout my life to try to enlighten the ignorant people I come across.

We're going around in circles, but we agree very much about the negative effect he had on the people around him. Where we disagree is that - and correct me if I'm wrong - you believe that speaking out against him is the best way to inform and change people's minds, and I believe that way will not change the minds of the people who truly need to have their minds changed.

JW, please understand that I am on your side - we both want this world to come to a complete acceptance of your rights. I encourage you to change minds your way. I will do it my way. Our cause is the same.

I'm not sure if you're referring to me - but I've never said anything of the kind.

And they probably loved him. Which does not mean he was--what we would call--a positive influence in their lives any more than relatives who do other types of damage to their kids, while still professing love, are positive influences.

I remember watching some daytime TV show (Phil Donahue?) some years back that had Klan members on. There was at least one family with several generations on the show, and there was a Klan granny holding a baby who was dressed in baby sized Klan robes and hood.

I remember a 60 Minutes show on American Nazism from about twenty years ago. They showed tape of a brownshirted father proudly bringing his brownshirted twelve year old to his first local meeting. They then interviewed the kid, who said something like "When I grow up, I want to kill all the ni**ers and the Jews because they cause all the trouble."

But, Bear. The man's dead, and he's still making you miserable. Let it go.

First of all, I never once addressed you or anyone in this thread. I was speaking in general terms. And I hate to be a semantic ass here but:

I believe that there are quite a few remarks that I have read both in this thread and elsewhere that fall under this definition. I think the real question is whether hate can be justified. I think it most certainly can, but in my own life, I try to avoid it.

And so, you can continue to say that you don't hate the man, and perhaps you don't, but I think there are many who would admit that their emotions are pretty much in line with at least one of the definitions above.

Hatred is a human emotion. It's going to manifest itself in everyone, like love, or fear, or whatever. Glee? Heartburn?

I hate lots of things: Mint flavored ice cream. People who wear too much cologne. Mornings. Tea. Camping. Charlie Sheen. Many, many things. But I'm ok with it.

The metaphor that we have been playing volleyball with is a pure hypothetical construct. Nobody here HATES Jesse Helms because (I'm guessing) nobody here knew him personally, or ever met him.

That being said, pretty much everyone here HATES what he stood for, and what he used as his political ammunition for decades. He used you. He used me. He used all of us, and we paid him to do it.

Since he was a public figure, he's up for grabs like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, and Carrot Top. Lots of people have no problem hating Britney, or Carrot Top, or the Verizon "Can You Hear You Now" guy. Show of hands: who among us doesn't hate the Verizon guy?

And how many of us hate George Bush on a daily basis?
Thought so.

But to hate the late Jesse Helms suddenly inspires an almost Christ-like reflexive response to give thought and pause and be the better person, which is admirable. Heck, the bible even says that. And Helms waved that bible as his own personal weapon and shield. You can try all you want to listen to him and his believers respectfully and then eloquently make your point...

But he sure as hell didn't listen to you when he was alive. Now he really ain't gonna listen.

A George Bushian oversimplification would be: People who hate are bad. Haters are bad. Hating haters is bad becase then we are as bad as the haters because we hate them.

I disagree.

HATE with all your heart the kind of BLIND HATRED that Helms spewed. Let it make you mad. See red. Fight it with words, with deeds, with songs, and political cartoons. Mock it. Lampoon it. Make it preposterous - as laughable as driving a Lincoln Navigator with a baby sealskin interior. Make that kind of HATRED go out of fashion.

Pretending that we somehow should not hate or don't have the capacity to hate is just wrong. We are human. We are programmed with a menu of emotions including the capacity to both love and hate.

Emotions have dangerous flipsides: anxiety, meet depression. Love, meet hate.

So, likely nobody here hates Jesse Helms, the man.

But 99% of the people here HATE what he believed, and the ongoing damage that his beliefs caused, and continue to cause.

Everyone here should HATE what he stood for. He's unimportant in the cosmic scheme - he was just a two-bit flesh and blood vessel filled with bad ideas which he spewed forth while we, the taxpayers, paid him to do so.

And you know what else? Either he really hated you and me and all of us...or he could really care less, and was just pandering his poison to his hard line constituents.

Either way, he was a very bad apple.

I'm personally glad he's gone.

As a public figure and role model, he belongs to us - to love, to hate, to respect...

And yes, if we wish, to draw a caricature of him, gutted and filled with candy-flavored condoms and made into a giant Safe Sex Mussolini-like pinata.

He's just a stupid dead guy.

But never forget what that stupid dead guy stood for.

And HATE it.

Amen.

I don't think MBC or I were suggesting anyone needed to feel differently than they are feeling. We are dealing with it differently than, say, someone who draws your (very vividly described, btw!) pinata. We don't think that kind of thing would be helpful to us as people. But that opinion isn't stopping anyone else from feeling however they need to feel, doing whatever they need to do, to make themselves feel better and improve the world.

Someone very wise told me recently about a Buddhist teaching that I like very much. "Hatred is like holding on to a burning ember. You're the one who gets burned." It's OK for anyone to focus on him and hold on to their outrage. Of COURSE it is. But it's also OK for me to try to move on and let go but always be informed by his awful legacy as I attempt to do good in the world, to try to fill the karmic hole he made.

Fair enough.

No, not you.

Sorry, I have none of those feeling towards Jesse Helms. Again, you assume feelings that do not exist.

It's my turn to disagree. I think you use the word "hate" to freely. It's easy to do, and we all do it from time to time. Hate is not a good thing.

I agree with this very much. This is one of the reasons I was getting frustrated that several people repeatedly told me that I hate Senator Helms when I do not. I try my very best to never hold on to hate. If I feel it, I let it go.

This doesn't mean I can't dislike something, or be appalled, or disgusted, or morally outraged. Those are natural reactions to things that are disagreeable. Hatred is not.

If I might be permitted to add to your metaphor... Not only should we drop hatred when we feel it start to burn; once it's on the ground, we should stomp it out or pour water on it, or bury it in the dirt lest it start a fire that gets out of control.

I LOVE BossRadio's post!

One of the most important lessons I've learned over the last couple of decades is that it's perfectly fine to have "negative" feelings - as long as you recognize them and express them in a useful way. While I absolutely agree with LSPE that holding onto hate is a bad and dangerous thing, I would argue that it's even more dangerous to deny anger. Because it's real. And, unchecked, it can grow and become malevolent.

The fact that this argument is in a thread about Jesse Helms is what makes it interesting for me. Because, to many, Helms was a symbol of the worst that this country has to offer. A symbol. I don't look at his death as the death of a man, because I never knew him as a man. His death represents something - a silencing of a singularly hateful voice. And I rejoice at that. I feel no hatred, no anger - just relief. If his worldview was right, he's in heaven. Good for him.

When I heard that Tony Snow died, I felt none of the feelings that I felt when Helms died. Politically, I agreed with almost none of the beliefs that Snow espoused. As a mouthpiece of GWB, I hated him. But he was a man who didn't preach hate - he talked politics. And when I learned of his passing today, I felt sad. I didn't know him personally, of course. But I understood that during his life, he strove to make the world a better place - he just used a different blueprint than I would have used. Tony was the kind of person I would have liked to educate. To me, Helms was never a person. Helms was a bad idea made flesh. And the death of a bad idea is a good thing.

Rest in Peace, Tony Snow.

Hate and anger are two different emotions.

Of course. The conversation has become semantic at this point - we're all saying basically the same thing.

You, MBC and JWB are very kind, loving people. People like you make the world a better place. Philosophically, you are right. All of you echo the great Master Po when he taught young Grasshopper how to channel his emotions.
But remember, when faced with prejudice, hate and blind ignrance, Kwai Chiang Cain would gracefully kick his opponent's ass and then move on.
He channeled his emotions, but still knew when and how to use them.
And yes, he used them in self defense. And I'm sure Master Po disapproved of grave dancing. And yes, it was just a TV show, but dammit, it was a good one.

All I'm sayin' is...it's ok to hate a virulent, bad, hutful philosophy. I think that is the very best use of our capacity for hatred. Hating dangerous ideology enough to want to change it is a good thing...and yes, change ultimately occurs through deeds, like you nice people are all saying.

And did I mention I HATE all organized religion?

I tried to mojo you, but I got killed at the gate.
This has become a lively discussion, and it's really fascinating to see so many viewpoints on this obviously resonant topic.
I agree with you, sir.

Interesting discussion and lots of food for thought there, Boss Radio.

I think we can all agree that everyone hated what Helms stood for. So, there’s no disagreement there. In fact, I would say that it is unanimous in this thread. And, for the record I don’t think there is anything particularly wrong with hating inanimate objects. I pretty much hate mint ice cream with all my soul. But I think the line gets a little blurry than some might want to admit when it comes to Helms. People are quick to say that they didn’t hate the man but they hated everything he stood for. But calling him every name in the book isn’t really an attack on his positions, it is an expression of hatred for the man. And I’m not going to say that someone isn’t entitled to that opinion, that he was an evil, vile man. But that simply isn’t how I choose to focus my energy.

I don’t avoid hatred of people in an attempt to be more Christ-like, I do it because I don’t think that anything positive comes from it in my life. I don’t think it brings us any closer to the goal of equality for all people. In fact, I think it separates more than it brings together. I think bigotry is more often the result of fear and ignorance than it is actual hatred. And fear and ignorance can often be combated more successfully through respectful dialog. Sure, someone who truly hates black people or gays isn’t going to change through dialog, but what about all those other people who are simply following what they were taught by their parents or their church, or those who simply fear what they don’t understand.

I always found it interesting that when I would come out to a friend I had known for a long time, they always had a million questions. And I think that stems from the fact that they had never really known someone who was gay on a personal level before. And usually after we spent some time talking, they came to the understanding that nothing had changed, that I was the same person that I always was. And they were forced to confront some of these long-held misconceptions they had, this certainty that gay people were sooo different from them. Turns out, we have far more in common than differences. Imagine that.

And so, when I’m confronted by someone who holds on to this ignorance and fear, I always see an opportunity to try and change their perspective. But I’m sure not going to do it through name calling and telling them they are horrible people for believing what they do. And if I let anger or hatred take control of me, we simply cannot communicate effectively with each other. My method works, I’ve seen it work. It does not work on someone filled with hatred, however, because there is no desire to understand the other side. And if I were filled with hate and anger, I would have little desire to understand the other side either. That’s why I think that hatred can be more of a hindrance than an asset.

This is perhaps a poor analogy but, how many times was it said during the Iraq War that winning the battle was meaningless if the hearts and minds of the people couldn’t be won. And that’s kind of what I feel like here – it’s one thing to beat down a bigot through force, quite another to change the mind of his followers and thereby make him irrelevant. So, there are those who want to shout down Fred Phelps and show their hatred for the man, and I suppose that has its place. But I rather like the fact that other than his brainwashed family members, he really has no support from anyone. He is a caricature, someone who is generally pitied by all of society who sits back and watches hate envelope and destroy him. And in many ways, the same thing was true of Helms. He will never be remembered for any of the miniscule good that he did, so don’t sweat it. He will always be remembered for the bigot he was. Of this, I have no doubt.

There are two fronts to this ongoing battle against discrimination. One is to take on the truly vile in our society and the other is to engage in all of those who don’t act out of hatred but out of fear and ignorance. And while hatred may have its place for the former, it simply isn’t effective for the latter. So I will let those who want to destroy the evil-doers of society have at it with little complaint from me. But I would like to think that I am doing my part as well, every time I am able to get someone to reexamine their position. And for what I’m trying to do, hate simply doesn’t work.

Beautifully, eloquently stated. And certainly words to which we all aspire.

Hear, hear! I've been saying again and again that I'm angry at the man! I would never ask that anyone deny anger. I think Boss is right - this is a matter of semantics.

Enter derail...

You're welcome to that opinion. And my opinion is that a great deal of negative effect can come from people who are overly dogmatic, particularly to the point of believing everyone else is wrong, wrong, wrong. And particularly if they feel compelled to evangelize in a violent fashion, i.e. war. But on the other hand, I have seen religion do some very positive things for people. So while I have major problems with what people sometimes DO with religion, I don't think that spirituality - even organized, shared spirituality - is not a bad thing in and of itself, when used for connection, peace and emotional strength - and not for harm. (So please don't lump us all together like that.)

But then, I've the same problem with evangelical atheists that I have with evangelical Christians. What works for one person is simply that - what works for ONE PERSON. I don't really care what you believe, so long as in your actions and thoughts, you're not bringing harm to others.

And again, with all due respect, you assume that my comments are directed at you specifically. They aren't. As I said, perhaps you don't harbor any of this hatred, but there are plenty of people that do. Not necessarily in this thread even, but in general. That's what I'm trying to address.

Calling a bigot a bigot is ok. Calling a racist homophobe a racist homophobe is ok. That's what he was.

Yes, bigotry is fear and ignorance and MUST be confronted head-on. How come Don Imus' nappy headed hos was so terrible and shocking that he lost his lame-ass DJ job, and Helms was wandering around Congress saying far worse things every day, affecting legislation that affects you and me?

You're a very nice, thoughtful and kind person...and someone I'm proud to be friends with. You probably weren't hanging out with people who would lynch you.

In the ongoing war of ideas, all options must be left on the table. I'm not saying make decisions based on hate and anger, but don't discount the emotions you feel when you are met with injustice, prejudice and inhumanity.
It's ok to hate inhumanity.


Yes. I'm not suggesting a shouting match, I'm suggesting that the emotional triggers result in the taking of a positive step in the creative deconstruction or destruction of the ideology of inhumanity.

You are doing your part. And I think that I can probably tone down my rhetoric, but the message is what we all agree on:

Inhumanity must be confronted and vanquished through education, dialogue and understanding...and the occaisonal Kwai Chiang Cain slow motion kick to the head.

I actually don't think that Helms could have gotten away with those remarks today. I do actually think we are making progress. Take a look at George Allen, the former Republican senator from Virginia. Even in a place as conservative as Virginia, his comments didn't fly. He lost his seat and his Presidential aspirations, all with one uttering of a racial slur.

Thank you.

Not a derail at all, imo. It's perfectly Germane to where the discussion has gone. I have been accused, in the past, of being a hater of Christianity because I speak out against the actions of some Christians. I have met many, many fine people in my life; Some where religious, some where not. I've also encountered many who are not so good. Again; Some where religious, some where not. I couldn't care less what religion someone does, or does not, belong to. Belonging to a certain religion does not automatically make you a good person; just as non-belief doesn't automatically make you a bad person.

Fair enough.

I certainly hope you are correct.

Which is actually also what we are suggesting!

Boss Radio :snap:

Boss Radio and MousePod are completely and wonderfully RIGHT ON!

I am incapable of loving everyone as I am incapable to loving every one. I once thought it would be admirable of me to profess love and respect for all humankind until I realized I was lying to myself. I was denying myself important emotions that, left suppressed, were causing more harm than the simple expression of them.

I cannot respect everyone. I hold no one in any sort of esteme that spews forth the type of hatred that Helms did throughout his lifetime. To respect them means I hold them in some sort of regard, that I appreciate them in some way. Helms is someone I hold absolutely no regard for and he has done nothing for the world that I can show any amount of appreciation for. I accept the fact that he was an ignorant, hate-filled moron, but I also accept that fact that it was his choice to be that way. I didn't know the man personally, I can only respond to the choices his made in his life, and, as a result, I cannot respect him in any way. Saying that I can respect his beliefs in any way is giving his brand of hatred a green light in my opinion.

As H.L. Mencken said "we must respect the other fellows religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."

Respecting the privilege to hold ideas is not the same as given any respect to the validity of those ideas.

I have no problem at all using the moment of somebody's death to remind the world of their failures. When George Lucas goes the general coverage will be hagiographic and I'll be in some corner being scorned for reminding people that he didn't directly oversee a good movie after 1983. When Pope John Paul II died, I could acknowledge that in addition to be a huge malignancy in the world he also did many good things.

Yes, there is a place for respect and to an extent that has to do with who you're talking to. Here among us is one thing, if Jesse Helms granddaughter happened to be a member here we'd all treat the subject differently. And I didn't go out of my way to share my views of the pope with my Catholic friends. Honesty in personal expression is one thing, intruding on the grief of others is just rude.

But there is, in my opinion, a difference not just of degree but in type between resisting the surge of whitewashing that happens when someone dies with feeling personal pleasure that someone has died. Yes, sometimes the only way for a bad person's influence to end is through their death but all I really care about is the end of the influence and take no joy from the death. In this case, I am of the opinion that Helms's power of significant influence ended years ago and to the extent it still existed it didn't end with his death.

But yes, if compelled to comment on Helms's I'd say he was a colossal ass. The people of North Carolina were collosal asses in electing him 5 times, and his colleagues in Congress were collosal asses in allowing him to hold such sway over their proceedings.

In the end I don't care about the semantical differences (GC can pause here for the feeling of shock to pass) of "hate" vs. "disgust" vs. "anger." It is the same as asking if you and I both see "red" the same.

At the danger of repeating myself, I don't respect Helms or appreciate anything he's done. I've never asked anyone else to show him respect. I don't begrudge anyone from reacting to his death in any way. And I encourage being inspired by the ill someone does and use that inspiration to do good. I don't really understand why people seem to think what I'm saying is bad or flawed, because all I've been trying to say is that we need to break through the walls of bigotry, and that I worry that the way we choose to do that sometimes makes us unable to do that.

What LSPE has said before, and bears repeating, is that there is a difference between respecting someone and treating someone respectfully. You can have all the disrespect for someone's views that you like, but if you are in the same room with them and treat them with that derision that you feel, then any possibility of influencing or affecting them will forever go out the window.

Ditto.

I think what Tom and Alex and Strangler Lewis have said really highlights the differences in our arguments. I think that MBC and I are talking about a personal interaction, a way to make a personal difference to people who are like Helms. I think the rest of you are talking about your very understandable anger at Helms himself. And because we are talking about very different things, we will only continue to argue in circles on this.

And I have been trying to defend myself from an implication that my continuing to speak out against Helms, and feeling no sadness at his death, makes me the same as him.

Well said.

..and if by that you are referring to me (or think I said you are full of hatred) you are wrong-


Was not an accusation that you are full of hate- or are like him in views- however, it seems to me this thread has been full of hatred for what Helms said and did- and I wonder- how is that hatred different? Because it speaks against his form of hatred with another?

I am in the camp with LSPE and MBC- hatred is an emotion I avoid. Hatred hurts me- not the person or view I am "hating".

I'm sorry if you interpreted that as me saying you are full of hate- it was not what I was trying to get across.

The question however- of why is one hate acceptable and one not stands- for me, hate is not acceptable in either form.

Not hate, Nephy. Dismay, disgust, and moral outrage, yes. Hate, no.

Oh... by the way:

(A few pages earlier.)

For future reference... If you are going to claim you did not say a particular thing, make sure before hand that you actually didn't.

Don't you hate when that happens?

Excuse me?

Where in THAT quote did I say you are FULL of hate? You think you posted some kind of "gotcha"?

In this thread it is not a mystery to suspect that your feelings for him are hatred- you corrected that- I however did NOT say you were LIKE HIM or FULL OF HATE.

So- just as YOU want to be seen accurately, you could do ME the same courtesy! Just as you do not want people ascribing an emotion to you that you say you are not feeling- I would expect you not to put words in my mouth- I said NOTHING of the sort.

...or is there some double standard here?

Oh, come on. To say that just because you didn't say 'full' along with 'hatred' JW is totally wrong is a bit ridiculous. (Besides, saying one is full of hatred is rather redundant- hatred is the kind of emotion that sort of fills up all available space). It's also silly- Helms is NOT worth any of us fighting over, ever. He stoked enough of this shyt in his lifetime, so let it die with him.



Can't we all just get along?

:D

Let's dig him up and bring him back to life to put an end to this once and for all.

But by now he's even more smelly. If that's possible.





And now that I've poured gasoline on this fire...:eek:

WB- I did not say he was full of hatred or that he was like Helms. I have every right to defend myself against the allegation that I did.

I thought (and he corrected it) that he felt hate for the man-

Otherwise certainly we can get along- but I am not going to say nothing when I am being accused of something I did not do.

Well...

Anyway... I'm done now. I'm tired of arguing with you, Nephy. It's pointless, and gets us nowhere (which I should have known from long experience).

Thanks-

I was not aware we were arguing. I am sorry you could not bother to show me the same courtesy I showed you.

I already said it was not intended to mean what you took it to mean- I have explained ad naseum and you have chosen to disregard it- demanding respect when you clarified but ignoring my own request.

Your insults are duly noted- I thought, wrongly, that we had moved past this sort of issue but sadly you want to hold to it.

Peace out.

(one more thing- while I did quote you there I was referring to the MANY posts excusing hatred for his views by pointing to his-you are not the only one who posted in such a manner. Though you seem to be one of the few who finally explained that it was not hatred that drove you- I stand by the comment- pointing to someone else's hatred and intolerance is a poor excuse for indulging in the same)

I also never said you were LIKE him of FULL of hate- and as yet all you can do is put words in my mouth, intention in my words and IGNORE when I tell you that your interpretation is wrong- heaven forbid.


No WB- we can't get along.

JW, I know you're not interested in debating this further - in fact, neither am I! But I wanted you to know that I was never trying to imply that you are the "same" as Helms. Of course I don't think that; you are a good man infuriated at the actions of someone who did much to belittle and harm a just cause. I failed in getting my point across if you thought I was trying to say you're "equally bad" or similar, and I'm terribly sorry if that was the case.

I will try to explain my perspective once more before I give up and declare that my brain is only expelling indistinguishable mud, heh. Because I want you to know that, in fact, I'm not trying to compare the two of you as people. Rather, I'm comparing the way that your words might be received. Words like "truly evil" might be received by his peers the way words like "weak, morally sick wretches" were received by ours. When we couch our arguments in (even justifiable) anger and absolutes, our words are often written off by those who need most to hear them. It does not make you the same kind of person at all, JW. But it may mean that if anyone says to people with his ignorance and misconceptions what has been said here, our words may be similarly received as his were by all of us. (Likely you have no intention - or maybe you don't particularly care, and that's certainly your prerogative and I would never think less of you.)

This does not mean that I think you should not express just how angry you are. I would be saddened if ANY of us weren't made angry by the things this man said. I was just trying to put all of our words in context for the bigger fight to change the minds of his surviving peers, which was perhaps brought up too soon in the midst of remembrance of his bile, his gall, his - yes - evil - behavior.

I'll bring the Helms-shaped marshmallows. :evil:

After all, roasting someone is to honor them.

Hmm. Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong kind of roasting, but to err is human. ;)