Debates of all ilk
 

Starts at 9pm Eastern, 6pm Pacific. It seems a bit early to ask people to get off work and drive to our neck of the county but if anyone is up for it, we'd love to have you. Just some snacks and some sound bite watching. I promise to keep my optimism to a minimum. :) I've read that supposedly, Kerry "won" all 3 of his debates. Still, popcorn crunching political fun.

It sounds fun, CP. I'll be there in spirit.

Here's my wishlist for Obama for the next month:

The author is Maureen Dowd and you can find the rest of the piece here.

I totally would except I have an appointment in MV at 5:30, and I doubt I'd be done in time. Would've loved to watch it with you guys, though.

I'll be virtually watching it with you. Maybe we could get an IRC channel going for live debate about the debate?

I'd be up for that, Andrew. It would be fun.

Current TV is going to be showing tweets that people submit during the debate. You can find out more at www.current.com/debate You just add #current to a tweet to submit it.

A group chat might be interesting too for those not able to attend CP's part.

Let an old Luddite chime in here. I will be sure to watch on a (presumably online) source where no external comments, tweets, twitters or other responses will be visible. I'll seek out all that stuff after its over. It's just me. I'm not a very interactive, 2.0 person. (But I'd come over if I lived nearby.)

I can *technically* be there by 6, but I don't know if homework completion will be at a stage where I can physically be there at all.

I'm, per usual, gigging that night. Otherwise, I would so be there.

Have fun!

Wish I could make it but we're Rodeoing all weekend. Ye ha!

I'll be watching from up North (not as North as Wendy or Ozron, of course). In fact, I would not miss it.

Thanks for the link to the article 3894, that was great!

And I could never be there by six, so I'm another 'No, but thanks'


Howzabout you tivo all 3 presidential debates, and we can watch them back-to-back some Saturday???

Heheh

That would be so much McCain as to be violence-inducing. I'm going to need serious libations to get through them one at a time already.

I do so wish we could be there, but alas we will be preparing to fly to Michigan to celebrate nuptials (not ours - someone else's).

But whatcha doin' election night?

Cowering in a fetal position fearing the worst.

Either celebrating hard, long and loud or checking to see if I can work out of the Vancouver (BC) office.

GD's avatar looks like a screengrab from 70s porn.

That's 3 mentions in 3 different threads. :D

I'd love to go watch the debate with you guys, but I won't be home from work in time, in all likelihood.

Something tells me I wouldn't enjoy watching the debate with most of you....but have fun anyway!

Ditto that on all counts. Do so wish. Whatcha doin' 11/4?

Aw, c'mon Leo - I'll bring along my copy of Ronald Reagan speaking at the 1976 Convention :)

I could make it to GD's & CP's place by six, but only if I went straight (so to speak) from work. If I went home to get Bill, not till later. We'll probably watch it from home.

It kinda looks like the head on one of those blow-up man-dolls....

No worries, guys, I figured it might be a stretch :) And yes, my husband looks like a porn star, it's hawt.

An IRC channel? Your internet wrinkles are showing ;)

I'd be up for keeping chat open for commercial breaks (I'm going to keep an eye on the TV during the actual talking). YIM as codexjen and gtalk as jenniesloan77.

Umm... Get offa my iLawn?

A: smartwatermelon
Y: smart_water_melon
T: smartwatermelon
G: andrew.rich (odd man out, I guess)

Unfortunately I'll be staying in the 9th best place to live. But a chat sounds cool.



Great article Helen. I love Maureen Dowd.

Drinking (for those who drink) rules for tonight's debate: A shot every time McCain says "my friends" and a shot every time Obama says "change". *

*Not my idea. Just passing it along. Apparently, the game's all over Twitter.
:D

Today in Debate History-

Sep 26 1960

Kennedy and Nixon face off in the first televised presidential debate. Nixon had been recuperating from illness yet refused to wear makeup for the camera, looking haggard and gray. Radio viewers gave positive opinions for Nixon's performance but so many people saw the debate televised that Kennedy gained the lead in the polls, ultimately winning the election.

Chocolate - check
Popcorn - check
Water balloons - check

Waterproof TV - uncheck :)

I would make popcorn, but 6pm is too early. We'll probably be eating dinner.

I came home at mid-day. I'm going to play video games. I'm not sure I'm in a mood to cap the day with a political debate so I may wait for the soundbites afterward.

I thought the water balloons were for throwing at the neighbors when they cheer for (whoever you're against).

That's kind of where I'm at too. I got some not so great news today that really doesn't put me in a mood to watch real people arguing. I look forward to the LoT responses on here though.

GD&CP: are you still having the thing at your place?

If I get out early enough from my appointment I may truck on up there. Should I bring anything?

Sigh, I'd love to watch the debate with the Cadaverous Delights. Alas, I'll barely make it home by then ... it would be over by the time I got to Orange County on a Friday evening.


Maybe I'll play the Gemini Cricket Debate Drinking Game and imbibe myself into a stupor.

I will be trying to hear the debate in between shouts from my rabid roomate!
Should be a fun evening, I think. ;)

Gah, no. Since no one seemed available, we've done nothing to prepare. We've still got luggage from the trip lying everywhere, we're in no condition for visitors.

Then don't sweat it. Wasn't sure what time I'll be out anyway.

That's all fine and dandy, BDBopper, but neither Obama or McCain sit on any board that's doing anything regarding the bailout package - McCain and all his "I'm a maverick" posturing doesn't do any consensus building either, and the process would be better served by the two of them NOT being around to muck things up.

Sorry, but that's an absurd opinion. These two senators taking a few hours on one day to engage in a debate is going to affect the outcome of whatever negotiations are going on by exactly zero. What do you think they'd be doing in Washington, spending 24 hours in a room talking to other senators. The vote hasn't even made it to the senate yet, it's Congress that's got the bulk of the work right now. And they aren't going to be in a bunker, detached from any involvement in what little they have to do with whatever's going on.

They're running for President. It's part of their job now to be in front of the camera campaigning for themselves. It's entirely possible to do both, and that's what they're going to do.

Is it me, or is McCain not really answering the questions?

That's where Palin learned it from.

Lies, Mr McCain. Lies, lies, lies.

I need more to drink.

I think President Obama should make McCain his secretary of Defense. Heheh. Hooboy, would I love to be a fly on the wall for THOSE cabinet meetings!

McCain has sounded a bit -what is it - condescending? Patronizing at times?

"I have a bracelet too" hahah.... I'm still trying to decide if that was a zing! moment or a me-too one.

McCain: "Ach-meh-den-ih-zhad"

Umm...

OMG! McCain isn't wearing a flag pin! He's not a patriot!

Wow. Condescending much?

McCain would be a great person to read a bedtime story, but I don't know if I'd call his speaking style "presidential". Not that he doesn't have interesting things to say, but his delivery is.... grandfatherly? He delivers what he's saying as if he were a grandpa teaching his grandson about model trains.

If Obama's elitist... then fine. I want an elite president.

snore.

McCain has stepped on Lehrer every time Lehrer tries to move on.

I will grant McCain an understanding of foreign policy. I'm pleased to see that Obama's not too shabby either. I repeat my opinion that McCain would be a great member of Obama's cabinet.

Maybe the new neocon plan is for McCain to put us all too sleep after he's elected, so we won't notice when they sell the country out from under us.

He can't hear him trying to move on.

Answer the freaking question, Mcdickhead!

McCain is a disgusting prevaractor, a dullard, and the most annoying person to listen to.

Ladies and gentleman, our next president of the united states.

Obama needs to stop saying "John is right". You'll never hear McCain saying "Obama is right", even when he is.

You could past just about any politician's head on these two and it would sound exactly the same.

I love the BBC coverage:

"Rather than go into the spin room and hear campaign operatives spout pre-packaged soundbites about how good their candidate did tonight, we're going to go to our correspondents around the world and see how other countries are perceiving tonight's debate."

And, this is why BBC News is my second favorite news source.

The value of that depends on who exactly they're talking to. I don't suspect the man on the street interview from Paris is any less idiotic than your average man on the street interview from Chicago.

Unless they're going to political observers in which case they are just providing their unofficial spin in place of the official spin.


My view (I did end up watching): Neither particularly embarrassed themself, neither particularly excelled. Everybody will generally come out liking better whoever liked better before.

So surprised that Palin declined to be interviewed afterwards. Can't effing wait for the VP debate.

Can Tiny Fey play Palin in the VP debates? Please?

I think Palin should quit, then be replaced by Richard Simmons.

This is yummy lemonade...

Solid debate on both sides. I thought McCain came off overly aggressive, but hey, that's what his constituent wants, so he probably considers that a success. I swear to god I caught a George Bush "heh" in there. Obama was solid and remained pretty unrattled, not letting McCain bully his way to the last word every time. They each had their strong moments, but no knock out blows on either side.

For what it's worth, Obama did a better job of picking up on Lerher's oh so subtle proddings to make it convorsational. All theatrics of course, but Mr. Townhall meeting seemed pretty unwilling for a while to step out from behind the moderator. He eventually caught on, but I give Obama the advantage on that aspect by a long shot.

I liked the rooster crowing in the background of Baghdad.

Alex, they talked to their correspondents in Beijing, Moscow, Afghanistan (Kabul I think) and Baghdad. It was short and sweet, but at least gave more than the usual pundit spin that comes out of the US press.

I don't think it changed any minds, actually I thought McCain came off better than I expected. The test is, how many minds, if any, did it make up?

For the first time in my memory, I'm looking forward to the V.P. debate though...

Palin has already won the VP debate.

Link? I mean ad?

The debate has not yet occured so I cannot provide a link.....

I don't know if you are familier with an MTV animated series called Daria. If you are I refer you to the episode titled "Quinn the Brain". That's the best I can do for you for now.

Rest assured, Palin has already won the contest, trust me.

I was referring to the ad that the McCain campaign posted this afternoon stating that he won the debate before it even happened.

Oh that....optimistic fellow, that McCain....turns out he was right(in my partisan opinion) :)

I am basically saying that Palin has already won because the media has conditioned the public to expect a blithering idiot....all she has to do is exceed the publics extremely low expectations and Bam, we have a winner.

Palin has already won because the battle for the lowest expectations, with the help of the mainstream media(whether they mean to or not) has already been fought and won beyond her wildest dreams.

In the episode of Daria that I was referring to earlier, Quinn was on the verge of having to repeat the 9th grade and then all of the sudden writes a paper that is barely ok....but because her teacher didn't expect it to be that good he not only gave her an A+ but decided that Quinn should tutor her sister Daria(a straight A student) whose best subject happens to be writing.

My... Aren't we optimistic...

Very partisan. Both spoke effectively to those that agree with them. No one won. McCain had took the most initiative and Obama played the best defense. Push meets shove. Hard to believe McCain camp's claim that Obama started a shouting match in their closed meeting with the Pres when McCain was the one running right through the moderators stop signs to try to get the last word in.

The media has not portrayed Palin as a 'blithering idiot'- she has done that to herself. The (two?) interviews she has given were softball pitches that she struck out on, and just the fact that they had to dumb down the VP debate structure to accommodate her does not help that perception. There may be nowhere but up for her, but that is hardly due to media manipulation.

What was that whole thing McCain was saying about South Koreans being 3 inches taller than North Koreans? Huh?

McCain had this steamroller tactic of just barreling on even though his time was up and Jim Lehrer was moving on.

I liked how Obama addressed almost every jab McCain got in. It was what I wanted Kerry to do and he didn't.

I think Obama had the slight edge over McCain, but it wasn't a huge victory for either candidate. I don't see anyone actually changing their minds based on this debate. In fact, I don't expect anyone to be swayed by any of the debates.

I liked the whole 'Yeah, I have a bracelet, too' moment.

I caught about 10 minutes of the debate - enough to hear the candidates avoid the questions with their canned faux-responses. Then I put on the new Bitter:sweet CD - can't wait to see them live. This political season is really making me appreciate music more.

CBS/Knowledge Networks poll of uncommitted voters immediately after the debate:

39% Obama
24% McCain
37% draw

Years of famine and childhood malnutrition has produced of generation of North Koreans that are significantly shorter than their counterparts in South Korea and even the older generations in North Korea (and those older generations are of approximately the same average height whether in North or South Korea).

http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...4&slug=korea14

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/...renthelegacyof

I watched and then I read. I think there is a bit of a Nixon-Kennedy vibe, honestly. Watching I gave the nod to Obama. He just looked the part. Reading I gave it to McCain. But I agree with GD (where's that quote he submitted once about agreeing with me and how aweful it made him feel?) that neither side clearly had an advantage, and neither side gaffed.

This was encouraging to me in one way. I remember going on MousePlanet after the first Bush-Kerrey debate nearly vomiting and incredibly depressed because Bush sucked so freakin' badly. And then Bush still won the election (making all of you feel like vomiting and incredibly depressed).

I will say this. If Obama does what he says he will, I do not regard him as someone I can't ever support should he win. However, I keep getting the Bill Clinton promising a middle class tax cut feeling and I know that Obama is just a politician, same as everyone else, saying what he thinks will get him elected. To be fair, McCain does the same thing, but McCain has shown more legislating with the other side moving across the aisle than Obama has. Freak out about it, but I can name a bunch of examples (most of which I hated, by the way).

Anyway....eh. Don't think this debate changed anyone's mind, which at this point plays to Obama with his lead.

I don't get how anyone can be undecided in this election.

I agreed with my boyfriend Paul Begala's take (surprise!). The overall impression of John McCain is Mr. Yesterday. The overall impression of Obama is Mr. Future.

I don't care that McCain stumbled over Achmedinejad. I think he would have come across well to anyone who thought that at age 72 he was a bumbler. I wasn't as bothered as some by his obvious rudeness, but I do agree with the commentator who said that it didn't play well because Obama, beyond principled disagreement, didn't give him any openings where taking that tone made any sense.

I thought McCain did a good job at showcasing his experience with foreign affairs, and I thought Obama did a better job than McCain at cramming his opponent's mistakes down his throat. McCain gets the nod for worst line of the night with his "How about we don't spend any money?" riposte.

I did come away thinking that if a Republican had to steal the last two elections, I would have preferred it be McCain than Bush, but overall I thought Obama won a close one.

scaeagles, which part of Obama's plans (which, yeah, are just elect-me bluster) freak you out? Is it the drawdown of troops from Iraq to increase the levels in Afghanistan? Is it the closing of corporate tax loopholes and not giving businesses a further tax break, but instead extending that break to individuals making less than $200,00 annually? Is it the committment to invest as heavily as possible in renewal energies, including nuclear power?

Those seem to be the 3 topics he belabored through the debate. He barely mentioned his healthcare plan, and when he did, it was with zero detail. If that's what you object to, I call shenanigans. He didn't mention anything about it during the debate, except the vague goal of all Americans having "access" to "basic" healthcare.


Please don't fall for what McCain might have said about it. It's best discount the way each candidate mischaracterizes the positions of the other. Dirty pool.

The quick hit on polls say Obama "won".

I'd agree with what others have said here, that neither candidate screwed up badly, neither did spectacularly well. McCain got in some great foreign policy jabs, though Obama's handling of the format gave him an edge in my book. He addressed Jim, John, and the camera, and did it fluidly. Visually, Obama killed. McCain's eyes were watery and he blinked a lot. I can't stand that awful smile McCain has when he disagrees with Obama - cringeworthy.

oh ... and Goonie's observation that McCain sounds like a grandfather explaining toy trains is right on. He's so patronizing in his tone. Ycch.


I thought the best line of the night was Obama's ... in response to McCain's spending freeze plan ... that the budget is best addressed with a scalpel, not a hatchet.

It was not the only time I thought he made McCain look a little too stupid to be president.


Sigh, not that that's not a highly electible quality. Americans seem to like stupid in their presidents.

I think it was NBC's Brian Williams who observed that McCain really doesn't like Obama and lets it show in his body language, facial expressions and tone of voice. He lets himself get perturbed by his disdain for his opponent, and that makes him look like a jerk. (That last part is mine ;) )

Amazing about the North Korean malnutrition problem. Wow.

One of Kim Jong Il's loonier moves was when someone from Britain gave North Korea a dozen rabbits, very large rabbits, so North Korea could attempt to start a population to use as food for the country. Instead, Il ate them at a banquet for his birthday.

:)

There weren't any strikeouts, nor were there home runs, but I really liked the debate. I think that both of the candidates did a good job of expressing their opinions and represented their differences in a clear way. I'm still voting for Obama, but like scaeagles, if the other guy wins, I'm not going to give up on America. Now if they'd both dump their VP choices...

Just curious...why would you want Obama to dump Biden?

So this opinion has nothing to do with either of their politics, but if one were deciding purely on what body language and the ability to look sincere Obama won by a landslide. McCain kept chuckling at him. At one point Obama looked at someone off camera and gave them a lovely smile. After the debate when they both greeted their wives it seemed that there is actual intimacy between Obama and Michelle while McCain and wife's greeting seemed very forced.

Say what you will about all politicians being the same, but I think Obama has McCain trumped on character and heart.

Sleepyjeff: If by "media conditioning" you mean televising what Palin actually says, you are so right. Maybe they should start over-dubbing with someone who actually knows what she's talking about?

I do think the VP debate will be tricky stuff. Biden's going to have to try not to make it look like a complete bloodbath. Palin's going to be pure slime in avoidance of answering actual questions.

It's not just that McCain sounded patronizing to someone younger, it's that Obama is also Black. My husband remembers hitchhiking through Mississippi years ago. He got a ride with a delivery man who had his Black "boy" with him who made all the deliveries while he chatted with customers. My husband said McCain's tone was just like that man's to his "boy".

Like I said, if Obama does what he says, I'm NOT overly freaked out and think I even said that (though not in that way). I simply don't trust him (nor do I in particular trust McCain) to do it. I think I said I keep getting a Bill Clinton middle class tax cut feeling from Obama - sounds great, appeals to people, but never happened, nor do I believe Clinton was ever serious about one.

Drawdown of troops to increase in Afghanistan? This I have no problem with as the Iraqis are doing an increasingly better job taking charge of their own security. No problem whatsoever as long as it is done gradually. Makes sense.

Corporate taxes. There is no such thing as a corporate tax. Corporate taxes are passed along to the consumer as a price increase. Unless you start capping profit margins, there is no net positive effect to the consumer. If corporate taxes cause price increases to an extent that it costs the middle class more than their tax breaks - a very real possibility - then what happens is the economy worsens, it gets herder for the middle class, and the politicians get to portray the corporations as the bad guys and pointing to their middle class tax cuts. Obama knows this and I feel this is where he is being very disingenuous and simply pandering. This does bother me.

Renewable energies are wonderful and McCain would invest no less. I just think that Obama is being disingenuous here as well. For all the cries of drilling doesn't dive us a drop of oil for 10 years, how long will it take to get nuclear power plants online with all the environmental restrictions? There are reasons we haven't built any. I'm all for them. Best form of energy there is. How long will it take to develop these alternative forms? Reliance on those is a long, long time away. Even then, the primary source of of energy needs, being transportation, isn't going to be using clean electricity for a long time. I'd feel better if Obama acknowledged that. Obama once said gas prices only bothered him because of how quickly they went up. That bothers me. His policies don't, I just think they are very incomplete and that McCain has a better handle on the immediate needs as well as the long term sneeds.

McCain talks that way to pretty much everyone. Certainly not racial. I think it boils down to arrogance.

I'd have to agree that it's just general arrogance, which hardly makes it more palatable. He is that way with everyone who isn't fawning over him- note the many, many examples of interview meltdowns and personal interactions with people over his career. He does need to practice smiling in the mirror; every time I see him flash that taut sort of grimace he thinks passes as a smile I get concerned about his fiber intake.

Anyone who voted for John Kerrey or thinks Joe Biden is a great pick and is offended by the arrogance of McCain and how he talks down to people...well, it's probably an issue of prefering the candidate and their policies more than an issue of arrogance. I find Obama to be incredibly arrogant as well, and have voiced that, but McCains bothers me less because he's my candidate of choice.

That just makes me sad.

Leo, we've been over this. You can deny it all you want, but it's one of the most basic principles of supply and demand economics and is mathematical truth. Taxes levied against the supply side are NOT proportionately compensated for in consumer prices. The more elastic the price of the good, the smaller impact a supply-side tax has on a consumer. It is a function of the slope of the demand curve.

Well, I'm not against Biden per se. I think his experience, especially his foreign policy experience, will make him a fine Vice President. However, if it were up to me to pick Obama's running mate, I would have chosen Richardson, Kucinich, or even Clinton - but that's just because that's who I liked in the primaries. Others have picked up on Biden's apparent arrogance, and his gaffes over the last couple of weeks add fodder to the nasty ad campaigns that are sure to continue over the next month. But if it's Biden, I'm OK with him. Just as I hope that the people choosing to vote Republican are OK with Palin.

I completely disagree, GD. For every source you can cite, I can cite just as many lauded economics professors and experts who say the opposite of what you have said. You're right - we've been over this, and we've each cited our sources, and you have one school of thought, and I have another school of thought.

If you'd like I can go into other reasons why high corporate taxes are a bad idea, but I doubt it would make a difference.

Have you ever owned a business, Leo?

Whatever. The fact remains that Obama made the most salient point in that discussion. On paper we have one of the highest corporate tax rates. But because we let them write anything and everything off, they don't actually pay anywhere close to that rate and the effective rate is actually one of the lowest. That's effed up no matter how you look at it.

This is true, the tax is shared between seller and consumer.

To be fair (and I don't like his grimace either), the left side of his face is covered in scar tissue from melanoma surgeries; among other things after the 2000 campaign he had lymph nodes and some muscle tissue removed from that side. The scars aren't obvious because he's usually wearing make-up when you see him, but he does have a loss of mobility on one side of his face.

Admittedly, this causes him to have a smile that looks off. Just like his POW injuries make it difficult for him to raise his arms (and his jaw was broken then as well which may also contribute to the smile) which gives him a very odd walk and stance.

So yeah, I have a visceral negative reaction but I try to remind myself that it is kind of like laughing at a hairlip and that it isn't really important anyway since the way you smile isn't really an indicator of what kind of person you are.

Here's a picture of him shortly after one of his facial surgeries.

Actually, yes. But not in the way you might think. Fully distributed partnership. 10 years. A fully distributed partnership pays no corporate taxes.

OK, just me wondering and trying to understand.

I haven't read all of this thread (surprisingly, I've wanted to as of late, I've just been out of time and not willing to go through Sooo...-like threads) but after about 30-ish minutes of the debate, I had to change channels due to the frustrating way that both candidates never answered the questions at hand, but went toward whatever the hell they wanted to talk about, so long as it was a tangent point.

If it got better after that, I don't know.

Oh, and I'm sure it was mentioned in another thread, but I couldn't help but be annoyed with McCain's choice to ditch Letterman for Couric the other night. Blah..

The first 30 minutes were devoted to the financial crisis, and both candidates were tone deaf to the current American panic. But McCain so blatently refused to answer Lehrer's questions, that he asked it again and again ... and the final time even saying he was changing the wording so that he could hope to get a straight answer from either of them.


Once the debate turned to the scheduled topic of foreign policy, they each did better.

I was amazed and aghast today to overhear so many rightwing newscasts that, I guess predictably, found Obama's performance and positions abyssmal and McCain fantastic on both fronts. On.What.Planet?

Too bad it wasn't produced by Nickelodeon - everytime they said "I don't know" - they would have been slimed :)

I found no surprise in the left praising Obama and the right praising McCain in whatever format. I'm kind of surprised you were surprised. Wouldn't have been any other way.

Actually, I haven't seen any source that's said anything other than they both did well.

To be honest, I haven't read any analysis of the debate. I just figured it would be that way no matter what.

Mirroring the public reaction, Obama seems to have gone up a tick in the polls.

Oh, and for the record I don't really support a middle class tax cut as proposed by Obama.

I don't think Obama supports a middle class tax cut as proposed by Obama.

I support repealing the Alternative Minimum Tax before the year, perhaps it''s '09 or maybe 2010, it starts affecting incomes under $70K annual. That's gonna mean a GIANT tax increase for, well, for the likes of me ... and i consider myself, in West Los Angeles, decidely middle class.

So unless that's repealed, which you could view as a cut in current tax law, taxes are going to go significantly up for the middle class. And yet, if that were abolished, revenues would not be lower than they are now.



I don't think that's necessarily the "middle class tax cut" Obama is proposing, but it's one I wholeheartedly support.

I thought you were against income taxes all together, ISM.

Source
Oofta!
Ebert gives McCain a thumbs down.
Weird commentary from a film critic...

Actually, a film critic reviewing a debate seems like a logical next step given much of the current political coverage.

The debate in one minute ;)

Um, question. Are we going to have a new thread for each debate ... or should we change the name of this one to have a single debate thread?


I think the political threads are proliferating pretty wildly around here .... but maybe that's just me.

that was brilliant, btw. :)

:( flash player is not up to snuff. Later, when I get home, then.

Totally.

I'd be fine with a mod changing the title. We can put the VP debate stuff here too.

I love that the VP debate is a thousand times more anticipated and poplular than the 3 presidential debates put together.

I am missing the VP debate. I hope to keep up via twitter, and to get the recap on SNL on Saturday.

OMG, last night's Daily Show bit on the debate was HYSTERICAL!

Agree!
Disagree!
They're fair and balanced!

Now THAT'S a focus group!

Mom, you're 82, quit with the jet black hair color.

I think that lady mustv'e got the sh!t beat out of her in the parking lot after that session. (Or maybe she was gummed to death.)

"He was trying to control the debate! He was trying to control the debate!"

Regarding tomorrow's debate, I think Palin's going to do okay.
Everyone's expectations are really, really low right now. I think she'll hold her own and be perceived as the victor. (If there really is such a thing as someone winning these debates. Like it was said before, I don't think they'll have much impact on the election's outcome.)

Fox News: it's fair and balanced.

A lot of people I know are planning VP debate parties, somewhat on the assumption that she'll provide comedy like her Couric interview.

I don't see this happening. Now, I don't necessarily see her doing well, but she'll be sufficiently prepped that I don't expect meandering meaningless answers like she gave Couric.

Instead she'll have prepared statements and will use them regardless of question. So she may still look bad for not answering questions but it won't be the same kind of bad as the Couric interview.

The Daily Show clip was hysterical.
"Tuchus" - It's a great word to say out loud.
:D

Yeah, but "tribe" was not.



With the proviso, not widely understood, that jews consider themselves from tribes ... and so it's not really as derrogatory as it likely came across.

Palin is about to take the exam without having taken the class. Whoever first said it has the situation about right.

Since she knows jack compared to Biden or really any legitimate candidate for national office, I predict she throws the folksy into overdrive - droppin' g's, usin' oddball expressions, makin' analogies to ice hockey and huntin'. She's going for the I'd-like-to-have-a-beer-with-her thing that worked for George W.

I was interesting that the person who was in the most denial was also denying her head its true hair color.

Watch for a lot of blame about Palin's debate performance to fly towards the moderator.

You mean the one who is writing a book entitled "The Obama Age"?

Or credit.

I predict 1) She won't be allowed to stick to canned statements; and 2) all of the questions will be geared towards foreign affairs and the economy, and none of the questions will be geared towards her supposed strengths, i.e., her anti-choice views, her hockeymomishkeit and her pro-family agenda of belligerence, drug addiction and promiscuity.

Timely and courtesy of Random Quote of the Day, the MO for Palin.*







*I do not mean to offend, but the quotation seems to be relevant to my thinking on how the GOP works sometimes at election time.

It also helps to have an audience at least somewhat predisposed to the viewpoints being hammered.

I just want one question to be asked of both VP candidates:

In your personal view, and just giving a simple number, approximately how old is this planet?

Iffil seems to be getting some guff about her pro-Obama book.

Or to put it another way:

"The Flintstones: Fact or Fiction?"

No, I don't want it to be presented as mocking. Just ask straightforward.

Hell, for Palin, answering 6000 years would solidify a LOT of votes, so it might not actually be that bad of an answer (politically). I just want to see it put out there bluntly.

I think it is safe to suggest that the McCain may not have agreed to her moderating should they have known about it before hand.

Her answer would be:
"Well, Gwen, the Flintstones were, in fact, a real TV show on TV."

Which I could see from my living room.

Beforehand? Was the book published this week?

The book is to be published on inauguration day but I don't see how that is a factor. Having a moderator who:

A) Is writing a book about one of the candidates

and

B) Stands to make more from her book sale if Obama is elected

Is a clear conflict of interest. The fact that is was not disclosed until this late is just skeezy.

I agree that there is the appearance of a conflict, although I'm not sure that she stands to make more if Obama is elected. Believing that she makes more if her last chapter is about how Obama lost because of racism, she could draw Palin into repeated uses of the N word followed by apologetics that, just as much as real Americans love their irresponsible sex, drug use to alleviate small-town boredom and ass kicking, real Americans are rubbed the wrong way by black people.

And turning to you, Senator Biden, I'm sure you agree with the governor since you expressed pleasant surprise at Barack Obama's cleanliness.

I would have to agree on the appearance of conflict. On the other hand, since many moderators can't help but favor one candidate over the other (and given many moderators are journalists...), perhaps the threat of conflict being held over her head will force her to deliberately be more neutral or even favor the opposing side, lest she get called on it.

That's a good point. It's probably no big deal to the Republicans since they knew the deck would be stacked against them from the start anyway.

She should step aside. I don't want my election fun spoiled by suggestions that Obama won because a black woman journalist sold out her sex in favor of her race.

I just don't think that's good for the Jews.

^ Well done.

She didn't mention the book to the debate commission, but it was mentioned in Time Magazine in August, and in an interview with the Washington Post (I believe) in September. It's been available on presale with Amazon. Her publisher chose the release date. The Obama chapter hasn't even been written yet, and he is but a small part of the book about black politics since the Civil War era.


Let the Cons pout and cry. It's not gonna change anything now, even if she did have a conflict of interest or was somehow hiding the book from the candidates.

I printed out our Palin Bingo cards. I'm stopping at L&L on the way home tomorrow to pick up some katsu for dinner. We're ready!

Amusing tidbit, here's an article summarizing some of the jokes made about Palin preparing for the debate:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26991328/

A behind-the-scenes look at Biden's debate prep:

http://www.236.com/news/2008/10/01/d...s_w_1_9211.php

I have to agree. The book thing is not that big of a deal. Sure it might be of some advantage to Obama but it's not like the Republicans won't have a trick or two up their sleeve as well.

Thanks to you, the office keyboard is now totally ruined. :D

I hope so but there is a way around this:

Gwen knows what she's going to ask each candidate.....suppose that information "accidently" found it's way into camp Obama?

She could then ask really, really tough questions of Biden and rather softball questions of Palin and no one will be able to accuse her of being unfair to Sarah while at the same time Biden will look like a mental giant for answering all of these tough questions "off the top of his head"


So, while others will be watching to see if Palin is treated unfairly by Gwen I will be watching to see if Biden gets the toughest horse while Palin isn't allowed to score because her bronco won't buck.

Dog-gone it!

I think the only question remaining is whether this will go down as more boring or less than the first presidential debate.


Snore, snore, zzzzzzzzzzzz

I like how she answered the question about her flaws, by completing ignoring it or misunderstanding the question.

And then he pulled out the dead wife and child card...and got choked up. Day-um. That was less boring.

Her reaction? I am beginning to think she is a robot. I may have to revise my I [screw] Robots teacher to I [screw] Robots (except for the alin-bot).

I scored two BINGO, one the hard way.

My quick thoughts -

First, Ifill was no factor and concerns about her book and potential bias were clearly unfounded.

Secondly, Palin came across very well, not the stupid Couric interviewee that's been deservedly portrayed. While she didn't answer a couple of questions, Biden was guilty of that as well. There was one question she sounded like an absolute idiot on, but otherwise did an exceptional job.

Biden was clearly the more experienced debater and I would say he technically won the debate, but Palin certainly was effective at changing the image that's out there, and in that way she won. I predict a small bounce for McCain because of that.

Biden was about the most likable I'd ever seen him. Not in the least condescending nor arrogant.

Generally, I think Palin did a good job speaking. (I was kinda hoping for a bigger "entertainment" factor.) It would've been nice if she would've answered more the actual questions instead of giving snippits of a stump speech. Still...much better than most people expected, which was what she needed to do.

(BBC is saying, "She didn't do enough and Biden didn't make any mistakes" therefore, it changes nothing.)



As an aside, every time she winked at the camera and said things like, "Say it ain't so Joe," I would think of Tina Fey with her fingers in the air going, "Pew, pew, pew..."

and,

"John McCain has already tapped me..." is an SNL skit just waiting to be written.

You need to see the Bill & Ted's Halloween Adventure show at Universal Studios Hollywood (Halloween Horror Nights).

I agree, she did much better. But the cutesy folkisms have got to go!

You could tell they not only did a lot of coaching but had her memorize very specific speeches. The way she was rushing her lines, particularly at the beginning made that obvious. But she didn't fall on her face, she just didn't do anything that evidence native knowledge of the subjects. Even on her supposed strong topic of energy (which was her fall back whenever given a question she didn't want to answer) she never really said anything specific.

The format was pretty much to her advantage as it made direct confrontation almost impossible and no follow up questions.

I couldn't tell whether she was saying the constitution gave her expanded powers (wrong) or if she thought she should get expanded powers (bad). That was really the only interest position taken by either her or Biden.

Of course, when you are defending your interpretation of the recent comments by "commanders" in Afghanistan, it would probably be best that when you repeat someone names in a familiar way that you get the name right.

Palin did not suck. But she wasn't good, either. A CNN political commentator said something afterward that hit home for me. She talked about how in a 9/11 situation that she could not picture Palin making the decision to shoot down aircraft that flew in a restricted area while the President circled in Air Force One. I can't picture that either.

Biden was great. I found myself being impressed with him. There's a reason he's been in the Senate since he was 30. He sounded presidential to me, she did not.

Palin's cutesy sh!t is wearing thin on me. I'm also glad that Biden called her and McCain on all the 'Maverick' talk.

I even found myself teary-eyed when he talked about his son in the military. I loved that he pointed out that she didn't corner the market on family life.

I think tonight Palin erased her Couric interview image. But it made invisible Biden look downright awesome, imho.

Palin got one important phrase backwards. She talked about a "toxic mess on Main Street that's affecting Wall Street." I'm pretty sure she meant the other way around. Minor, but I haven't heard anyone mention it yet.

A couple of her blatant dodges were grating, essentially saying 'I'm not gonna answer that, I'm gonna talk about what I was told to talk about.' But, yeah, better than I expected.

Noo-kyoo-lar! Really, Governor Palin, is it that hard to say "nuclear?" Say the word NEW, then say the word CLEAR (kinda draw it out a little), put them together and you're pretty much there. Sheesh.

I also thought the "I've only been at this for 5 1/2 weeks" line was not smart.

This is where I was really disappointed with Gwen Ifill. The other candidates did it with Lehrer, too. But Lehrer let the world know they were pathetically ducking questions. Gwen gave them a complete pass, and both of them ducked questions often and inartfully. Palin's duckings were particularly awkward.

But she only gave one gibberish answer. I suppose after the week she's had, it's considered a victory that she wasn't speaking in tongues through the whole thing.

Gwen seemed stricter last time. I remember Cheney saying something like 'I wish I had longer to answer this question' and she said, 'Well, you don't.'
Love her.

Yes, I'll agree with Alex and GC. She didn't make as much of a fool of herself as she has in the very recent past. But to me, she only demonstrated that she can memorize passages and come up with twee phrases and redirects to substitute in when she doesn't know the answer of the question she's being asked. She was frequently timid and left Biden with the last word.

And, boy, he did an excellent job of saying it. I was very moved by his talk about family, I was very pleased with his firm stances - he was polite (didn't even correct her when she mispronounced the general's name) but he did not let up on the weaknesses in their arguments. It's a debate, and it often seemed one-sided because she refused to step outside of her rote answers to actually discuss.

And, yes. If you've only been doing this for 5 weeks, you're in no position to take this position.

Maybe they should have just done a dance battle?

Palin definitely fared better in the more familiar surroundings of a prepped traditional debate, something I'm sure she's been doing since JSA in high school. Still clearly has not processed these issues enough to be speaking off script, but she did fine with the script she was taught.

I thought Biden did a stellar job of driving home two main themes. 1) Go ahead and bring up individual votes all you want, I can show you how the REAL thrust of that vote was the bill it was attached to, not the issue you want it to be about and 2) No matter what decisions we eventually were cornered into going forward on (see point 1), we were arguing against it and only voted for it because SOMETHING had to be done even if we didn't agree that it was the best choice, and in those cases the result was exactly what we predicted would happen.

Places where I think he failed: 1) Regarding the surge, I think the Obama camp's tack should be, "We were against the surge not because we think it was doomed to failure, but because we would rather have seen a strategy that put the responsibility on Iraqis to handle their own ****." 2) "I challenge you to find a place where my message differs from Obama, unlike you who don't represent the same things your candidate is supposedly running for," then in his very next answer, "I am not afraid to speak my mind and tell Obama when I disagree with him."

But my favorite quote from him was, "I do not question their motives, I question their judgment." It's the attitude that drew me to Obama to begin with. The radical concept that it's possible to disagree with someone without vilifying them.

LMHO! I wondered if that winking was bugging you as much as it was me!


I agree on all your points!

The term "cutesy sh!t" is right on. UGH

I am more impressed with Biden then before. He gives me hope and confidence. I like and respect what I have seen of him.

Ifill was hampered by the debate format which didn't really allow for follow up questions.

You mean LIKE THIS?!?!?

I wonder if she was also hampered by a broken ankle that left her feeling somehow impotent.

Maybe she was being extra careful what with the right dogging her about her upcoming book.

By the way the New York Times has a fact check on all the things they said in the debate (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2...ntial-debate/). Overall I think Biden had a higher score there.

She did OK. She didn't faint or fail, much to the GREAT relief of the right. Biden held firm and focused on McCain. Both sides did fine, neither blundered. To me this was NOT a gamechanger, which means we're still where we were before the debate.

I certainly have complaints about the initial questions she asked (to often she was including the means of sidestepping in her question, or offering possible answers), but I don't blame her about the lack of follow up.

One can complain about whether the candidates weaving around the rules is acceptable, but she doesn't get to just make up rules and follow ups weren't allowed for.

I didn't watch the debate but I did read (on another board) that Palin was wearing red stilettos and was making notes on a pad of paper throughout. Someone surmised what she must be writing:

It made me laugh.

I thought the equal rights for gays question was phrased in favor of Biden. It allowed Biden a "yes, I support their rights," answer instead of having to lead with, "No, I don't support marriage but..." Either way it was clear that Palin stopped short of saying she supported the same rights as Biden did, but posing the question without specifically mentioning marriage played to his favor.

The winking made me cringe, as did "nucular".

She said "O'Biden" once.

I do expect the McCain ticket to get a boost in the polls from this. She more than met the rock-bottom bar of lowered expectations.

The one question that I felt she made the biggest dodge on was on whether Bush's Mid East policy has been a failure. Didn't address it at all.

And in general, though I'm admittedly biased, I don't think Palin successfully sold the, "You're looking to the past while we're looking to the future," line. Biden did an excellent job of selling the view that your choice to vote shouldn't be about who talk tough once the sh*t has hit the fan, it's about the people who have shown that they forsaw the sh*t hitting the fan in the first place and would have tried to prevent it.

How accurate that framing is may be up for debate, but Biden made the case well in this forum.

Case in point, the current lead headline at evil liberal tool msnbc.com is For Palin, mission accomplished

On the misspoken words front (which I don't consider very relevant to anything), Biden also referred to Bosniacs instead of Bosnians.

As far as "nukular" I wrote this on my LJ earlier:

I know it doesn't matter. But it's my gut reaction, much the same as my gut reaction to McCain's smile, but I have a far easier time looking past that gut reaction with McCain because it's entirely physiological.

I had to laugh when she said 'leave' instead of 'lead' when referring to McCain- she quickly corrected it, but one can't help if it was Freudian in nature.

She was much better in a dumbed down debate format, but she didn't answer many of the questions and instead just seized on the opportunity to cheer lead for her team, which I suppose was her prerogative but damned annoying to me as a viewer. I kept thinking "just answer the damned question already!" Very evasive, and very vague.

Any suggestions on where I can go for unedited debate footage?

Nevermind, found it

Maybe Pat Buchanan isn't gay after all, since he loved her out of all proportion to her performance. Or maybe he's just overcompensating.

As has been said, she came across like the host of Morning Latte with the teleprompter on instead of with the teleprompter off, which it has been during her recent interviews. I don't think the canned performance last night did anything to erase the previous negative impressions, and I think the line about direct talk to the people vs. media filters made no sense.

Weird note on the subject of gay rights: She started to say something that I thought was going to be "some of my best friends are gay" but turned out to be "some of my best friends are homophobic bigots." They do appear to be going for the gay vote since I don't know who would be turned on by all this "I'm a maverick/He's a maverick" talk other than chaps wearing accountants on Folsom Street.

On the constitutional expansion issue, I don't think she was advocating anything. I think that was an area where she had no idea what she was talking about and crap just fell out of her mouth.

Biden did very well, although I was worried for a second during the final handshake that he was going to kiss her. Most importantly, I think Biden did a much better job of selling Obama and the Democrats than Palin did of selling McCain and the Republicans.

Her suit was beautiful.

I thought there was a weird vibe between the families on the platform at the end. I was worried the scene was going to go Springer.

I still say that's Bristol's baby.

Kind of like when Biden was saying Obama voted for the 4 billion in oil company tax breaks, but did so for a different motive than McCain? Clearly when they voted the same he was questioning their motives.

Secondly, it may be good if Obama says that about the surge, but it would be a lie. The entire dem platform - and I'll look for Obama quotes later - has been that it was doomed to failure, and that it was failing.

What Biden had no answer for was when she quote him regarding how he disagreed with Obama and his stances duing the primary debates and would be honored to run with McCain. He had no answer for that.

Biden is my new geriatric crush.

And I guess I can't complain about "nukular," since I really like "Bosniacs."





scaeagles, of course Biden didn't have an answer about disagreeing with Obama when they were campaign opponents. There is none. I honestly don't recall though .... did he simply not answer, or did he evade with a speech about something else entirely? If the former, that was pretty classy (imo) in a debate full of bullsh!t evasions (on both sides).

Bosniacs was a slip, I think, like O'Biden - and I slip all the time so I'm forgiving.

But nu-kyu-lar is intentional. And I don't care how accepted it's becoming, I'm always going to look down on anyone who mispronounces it. Look at the word. It's not spelled nucular. Nu-cle-ar. It's right there in the spelling. And I don't support the vocabularic pandering of accepting "libary" or "axe me a question" either.

Hey, did you guys notice she recommended we trust the terrorists? Biden said that they're in the hills in Afghanistan and Pakistan; she said that our general and the terrorist leader both said they're in Iraq and we should trust their word. Trust the general, honey, but maybe not the terrorist.

Hrmmm.... I actually liked that line from her the best. What I couldn't stand were the cheesy 'tagline' statements she made throughout.

Overall, interesting debate. I don't think any one did better than the other, really. If anything McCain will see the boost (as mentioned and evidenced by GD), partly because she didn't come off as dumb as she has in recent times.

I actually wonder if Palin will stop dominating the news once the Presidential Debates resume next Tuesday. Since his big "campaign suspension" gaffe, McCain's been invisible in the media. That can't be good for a candidate ... though, in truth, I think the Republican Ticket is reversed and that there are Palin supporters and there are Obama supporters.

I'm not sure there are many true McCain supporters. Quite the oddity this time around.

He tried to put a spin on it, but never directly addressed it.

I don't think it's classy to avoid the issue, though. I think with such a large portion of the current political debate being Iraq and Afghanistan it is VERY important why he thought Obama to be "not ready" to be commander in chief and why those rather pointed criticisms of Obama and praise of McCain - when there have been no significant policy shifts for either since then - no longer apply now.

Indeed. I am not one and I don't know of many, even here in the state of AZ.

You miss my point (and I don't remember what he did in response). Simply not answering is not avoiding the issue to same lame degree as talking about something else entirely. If tearing down your own candidate on national tv is simply NOT a possibility, I personally find just shutting up to be the classier move than prevaracating ... precisely because I think silence speaks volumes in response to certain questions. But better to be silent than to lie or juevenily change the subject.

OK.

No, what he said, over and over, was that in the examples she would bring up in which Obama voted for/against X, either Obama was actually voting for/against Y which just happened to have X attached to it. Did John McCain vote for mandatory mental health coverage, NASCAR subsidies, and tax breaks this week? No, he voted for the bailout package. Did McCainn vote against troop funding? No, he voted against a timetable. That isn't questioning motivation, that's, correctly, pointing out that senate voting records are complex and easily distorted by ignoring context (not saying Obama's camp doesn't do the same, but it's still a salient point).

I would disagree in part. Biden was clearly trying to bring into question McCain's motives, particularly on 4 billion in tax breaks for oil companies. He was saying McCain is in the back pocket of big oil (or big business in general). He pointed out the 4 billion several times in that context.

I have no problem with that spin....it's what politicians do. But don't tell me you aren't questioning motives. Of course Biden was, particularly in that example.

Biden had concrete examples, facts. Palin had generalities. She sounded and looked nervous. She said "I'm not answering that." She winked and condescended, exactly like McCain does.

Again....please, oh mysterious fates, please let the American people see what I'm seeing.

Apparently, Bosniacs is correct. Bosnians refers to the citizens of Bosnia as a whole. Bosniacs are one of 3 major ethnic groups (to whom Biden also referred):

Full article (about war experience/distress 8 years after war)

I didn't pick up on any nervousness until about the last 15 minutes when she completely gacked a question on the role and powers of the VP. Then I thought she recovered.

She did say "I'm not answering that", which I kind of liked....they both didn't answer questions a lot and for her to admit once that she just wasn't going to answer it was refreshing.

Her mannerisms don't bug me, but they bug others, and I get that. For some reason I can't stand watching John Edwards speak for the same reasons, but it doesn't bother other people.

Because expectations for her were lower than expectations in any debate I can ever think of, I don't think they populace as a whole will be seeing those things. I think people who have already made up their minds will see what you see, just as those on my side won't see it that way at all.

I learned something new today. Thanks.

I fell the same as you WB. I felt she was adept at what she was coached to say, but I found her arrogance about not answering questions as posed very annoying.

That colored my judgement of her performance since she was unwilling or unable to even answer a question about what, given the current economic state, would the McPalin have to give up or bend (my words I'm paraphrasing) on what promises from the campaign not be kept. No politician has ever kept campaign promises, not all of them, not that I can recall. It's a small, niggling point, but it is this kind of crap that bugs me and illustrates that she is really not ready to make the jump from Gov-ner sx-pack to VP Hockey Mom (and alarmingly, Prez Palin if McCain drops over 2 days after election day)

She proved quite able to recite what she was coached on and evade, bait and switch and attack to deflect. The folksy manner and talk just irritated me. Let's face it, being a Main Street type person does not mean you hang out at the country store swilling beer and playin checkers with your buddies as she seems to illustrate. She has personality, but it's not one that apeals to me. Afterwards, I watched about 10 minutes of spin, and howled when I saw someone holding up a sigh that said Tina Fey '08, that I would vote for. :D

She exceeded my low expectations of her performance given the disasterous TV interviews. The right I am sure will feel great relief. She did nothing to sway me to consider my vote. Biden only strengthened my resolve that, for me, the Obama ticket is the one to cast my vote for. McCain and his platform do not speak to me or for me, so to me, McCain = no choice.

Of course, I am anxious for the next Obama-McCain debate on Tuesday.

I picked up on the nervousness. Someone can perfect memorizing a script but truly selling it while not understanding what is being said can be really hard. I appeared to me that she hoped that she wouldn't have to stray from her script. When she did, we heard more "betchas" and "hecks".

"Ms. Palin, we have identified a 747 heading on a collision course with the Empire State Building. Do our Air Force pilots have authorization to bring it down?"

"Oh, you betcha." She said with a wink.

"Pew, pew, pew" ;)

I heard on the radio that this whole thing seemed like a Disney movie. They get the home town gal in as VP, something happens and she's now the unlikely president using her hometown ways to win everyone over and have a happy hollywood movie ending.

kind of creepy.

I think the process would be improved if each side explained their voting record, statements, etc., with this answer. E.g.:

Biden/Hillary said Obama wasn't ready because they were running for president--what the f*ck do you expect them to say?

McCain/Obama voted this way or that because it led to greater cooperation on something else, because you can't be a total wild card, etc.

Obama talked about political realities to some extent in his book, but I haven't heard him or anyone else say it while the cameras were rolling.

I think someone already posted this somewhere else. :D

That'd be me, in the McCain thread.

In case anyone missed it, here is the Full Vice Presidential Debate.
:)

I think my feelings on the debate were best expressed by the analyst I read this morning who said that while Palin played an excellent AA game, Biden played a great big league game.

There's this function on Twitter where you can see what people are saying about the elections. It's a constant scroll of what people are saying about the debates last night. It's fascinating watching what people are tweeting about.
A lot of it is funny. There are a lot of people in this country with a sense of humor. That makes me happy.
:)

FYI, I believe the "Disney Movie" joke came from Matt Damon, and now it's the go-to line. He may just be a Hollywood blowhard, but he's right on the money here.

I think she's pretty.



For what that's worth.



We could have a "pretty" president. Wouldn't that be swell?


You betcha!

You know, I was expecting her to say "boy howdy" at some point in the debate. She didn't. Thank goodness.

Tina Fey for VP

"Can I call you Joe?"/ wink / "It's 'Drill, baby, drill" / wink. Someone at TPM put it so well :

Well, if she was trying to work her wiles on men, it seemingly didn't work. Women, on the other hand...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27009491/


ETA: The "stop embarrassing us" quote is from a Democrat.

Completely.

She insults me as a woman, as a hockey fan and as a future hockey mom.

"Can I call you Joe" just shows how informal our culture has become. Teachers are on a first name basis with students. Informal equates to comfortable/everyone is equal. Teachers are not equal to students.

Do you think Biden felt put on the spot by "Can I call you Joe?"



How do you think he'd feel if, when I meet him, I open with "Can I have your son Bow's phone number?"

Ah, sorry. I would've credited you but I couldn't remember where I'd seen it. :)

Just another reason Matt and I are so right for each other. :D


(Not the blowhard part, of course. ;) )

Looking at the transcript, after having asked, she only ever actually said the word "Joe" in reference to Biden once and that was in her lame Reagan call out when she said "Say it ain't so, Joe, there you go again..."

I'm sure that was a prepare line. I'm guessing she'd have used it even if he said no.

SO if he would have said no, would she still have used the line?

How was "Say it ain't so, Joe" too good to pass up? I know I've been power-reading through LoT lately, but isn't there a discussion in the Movie Musings thread about crappy retreads? Palin's barb was two (count 'em) quotes strung together... nothing new. Sorry, but I don't think she did a good job. I think she regurgitated a few scripted bits as well as a typical high school junior in the school play. I'd love for Brian Williams to ask her: "'Say it ain't so Joe.' Do you know what famous event in American history this line refers to?"

Yes, I know why she said it, just pointing out she didn't ever really use it (though I'm not 100% certain whether they knew they were on air at that point so it may have just been intended as a little power play between the two of them).

She was a sports journalist for a while so if there is anything I think she is more likely to know it would be the White Sox. If nothing else, she's probably seen Field of Dreams.

It is probably my age showing, but I would have had far more respect for Palin (of course, I would have to have some respect to have far more, I suppose) had she treated the older and more experienced Biden with a little respect.

My parents drilled it in my head that older people are referred to by their last name. I don't live strictly by that rule now but on the stage of a VP debate, in front of millions, her "Can I call you Joe?" just seemed out of place and too familiar to me. UGH!

I think alphabassettgrrl nailed the possible reasons for the question. Again, UGH!

Let's see, the dow dropped 500 more points today. Good luck to McCain tonight in his quest to change the subject from the economy.

For the same reason, I also find Obama's use of first names--Hillary, John--during debates to be a slightly off choice.

Of course, Biden blew the best possible answer to her question: "Honey, I'm a married man."

I don't. All three are Senators, equals. I like it, in fact.

I don't think he's going to at all. He's going to hammer on Fannie and Freddie, his early calls for reform when no one else listened, and Obama's contributions from the organization (one of the top in the Senate). Plus, he knows he can't. If he isn't well schooled on it by now with what's going on, he frankly doesn't deserve to be President (neither man does IMO).

Since Obama voted for the bill as well, I don't think Obama can hammer him on it. Frankly, they both deserve to be beaten over the head with the phone book size bill, but that's beside the point.

I'm watching because I want to see Brokaw moderate. This isn't going to change my mind.

Should Fannie and Freddie be added to the drinking game?

To use one of my favorites iSm isms, Oh My Frelling Gawd. This debate is like a joke, with a two headed monster saying the same things over and over. It's like a goddamned echo chamber.

I'm sticking through it though...while multitasking.

As one person said this morning, because of the format it isn't a debate, it isn't a town hall, it is just two press conferences run in parallel.

Is it me, or is Brokaw getting pissy?

I want to see Brokaw take them down.

WOW.

I had to turn it off after that. I want the last word. No me. NO ME. NO MEEEE I want the last word!!!!!!!!!

Few random notes....

Obama +1 for mentioning young people volunteerism

McCain -42 for condescending tone (his trademark, by now). It's so hard to watch him baby the country.

Obama -27 for being too vague and general.

Obama -18 for repetitiveness.

Obama +61 for not being John Kerry. He's as armed with comebacks as McCain is.

....

Oops, behind on posting this

Yeah, that was painful

McCain - 100 for sounding extremely meek in volume and tone.

Apparently I have to spread some around first, so visible mojo for the ultimate comeback!

my biggest question - will there be outrage at the candidate who brought up 9/11? I mean, how dare he!

I know you're kidding, but I think that bringing up 9/11 to conjure fear vs. bringing up the squandered unity post-9/11 is something altogether different.

It was most certainly said in jest, but no matter what context brought up by McCain it would be lambasted. As an example, in the last debate, McCain brought it up as an example of how the parties can come together in times of crisis, and in these parts he was slammed on big time.

And McCain should be lambasted if he did mention it. It's been the theme song of the Republican Party since 9/12/01. Obama was smart to bring it up and take it away from McCain should he attempt to make the "with Republicans you're safer" argument.

I found the debate mostly boring.

Obama was clearly the "winner" of this debate. He came across as being more likable and like CP said he hit back when necessary and didn't let things go like Kerry did.

There were too many awkward moments coming from McCain. The hairplugs line, the nailing Jell-o to the wall comment, the weird pacing he did...

This may seem like a minor point but McCain's "that one" stuck with me. It was condescending and a failed attempt at a light-hearted moment. It hit me the wrong way and I think it will with other people too.

The Obamas stuck around after the debate was over and talked to people. That played very well for him. McCain and his Stepford Wife disappeared.

Nope. Sorry Leo. I just scanned through the entire discussion of the last debate. Not one mention of 9/11 by anyone here.

Perhaps it was in the McCain discussion. I know it happened because I questioned it.

Edited to add:

My bad. It was predebate when McCain was talking about suspending his campaign.

It started here and went on.

In fact, JW, you made your feelings pretty well known....but I guess it was only when "they" bring up 9/11.

You beat me to it, Leo.

I guess in the context that McCain put it, it is less offensive to me than to some of the others in that thread. In hindsight though, since McCain really didn't suspend anything and instead was playing a political game, I question everything he said in his little speech.

Yeah. I saw Obama and his America hating wife socializing. Oh, wait. My bad. We aren't supposed to use ad hominem attacks here.

I agree. McCain was certainly playing a political game.

That reminds me of something that amused me in the debate. McCain said we'd tackle energy, health care, and entitlements at the same time. Obama said we had to prioritize. The reason I found this amusing was that Obama, when McCain suspended his campaign, said Presidents have to be able to multitask.

Even though I still won't be voting for him, I thought McCain won.

I thought that only one of them truly butchered an answer, which was near the end when Obama was talking about Russia and Putin.

As Mousepod stated above, it's all in the context.... and in the volume. I hear it over and over (and over and over) from Republicans. And when they do, it's all about fearmongering. All about distraction. Bush and Co couldn't give a rat's ass about the victims of 9/11 - only in the power the phrase holds over frightened people.

I heard some of it on the radio, I found McCain's use of the phrae "my friend" annoying - made me have flashbacks to the movie Barfly. Bukowski would have made an interesting president.

He didn't say we HAVE to prioritize. He was answering the question as posed, "how would you prioritize these?" (McCain got the more crowd pleasing answer out first - we can do it all - and Obama would have looked lame if he said the same thing.)

That would obviously have been the killer drinking game line for this evening. (Last week, of course, it was "maverick.")

I was amused how later in the debate both candidates kept talking about what the number one priority for this and that was. Of course when everything's a number one priority it means nothing is. I expect plenty of gridlock for years to come, whoever moves into the Whitehouse.

Huge difference. If you can't run a campaign and give feedback on a bill that you aren't authoring then maybe you shouldn't be President. How can you multi-task on 3 different areas that take funding when trying to fix the current economic crisis?

I didn't take Obama to mean that he was going to ignore the other 2 areas, just that they were going to be prioritized and focused on fixing one at a time.

I don't see how this debate could have been anything other than boring. At least in the first 60 minutes (all I saw before we had to go out) I don't think a single question touched on a topic that wasn't already discussed in the first one.

I know we're supposed to view town halls as somehow probing but the fact is that an audience of average voters just isn't likely to ask very probing questions and with everything pre-screened you aren't even going to get a periodic quack question.

Thank goodness no one said "Maverick".
I lost track of how many times "my friends", "look" (mostly by Obama) and "fundamental" were used.

Also, while it may sound good and seem directed at helping Main Street, but the government simply buying all the mortgages and repegging them at current value is simply a horrible idea. For either end of the political spectrum.

I'm not sure what McCain is thinking with that.

To continue a bit of semantics, JWBear did specify "using 9/11 like they do" (emphasis mine).

Just sayin'.

I was going to put a detailed word in on the "use it for fear vs. use it for unity" question, but I mercifully had something better to do than watch the debate, so I only know the context of McCain's use. So whatever.

"My Friends" annoys me and highlights the informal tone of their campaign along with Palin's "may I call you Joe?".

It reminds me of a parent who is trying to hard to be a friend instead of a parent or leader.

McCain's not one to be counted for dead .... but assuming the conventional wisdom is right and this was his last chance to turn things around by having a major victory ... the fact that he didn't - - means he lost.


I have to wonder why John McCain was so clearly uncomfortable with the format he pushed and pushed for. He even got in a dig about Obama not wanting to participate in Town Hall debates. Yet Obama was poised, comfortable and ultimately presidential. McCain was nervous, testy, petulant and obviously ill-at ease.

And yeah, sorry, but walking around the stage looking like a frail, old, cripple did not do his image any good either.


"That one" did not go over well with many folks, Mr. Cricket. Between that and insinuating the black man who asked a question about the economy had never heard of Fannie May, McCain came off as something of a racist.


Then again, that's the constituancy he has to count on if he wants to win the election at this point.

Right. Context. When you wrote what I linked to, the context of your post was in reference to what McCain said (at least it was only a few posts after when MBC pointed it out). YOu didn't seem to care about the context in which McCain used it....which was complimentary to both parties.

To be clear, I have no problem with what Obama said.

I probably agree with that, but Zogby has shown a trend moving toward McCain in the last few days. The debate may provide a point in the polls for McCain, and one to two points isn't much in the last 4 weeks.

Certainly Zogby is only one poll, but I believe most have shown a bit of closing over the last week.

If they can't put on a better show than that, they should cancel the third installment.

I get a kick out of McCain's selling of his commander-in-chief abilities:
"I have plans for every military contingency."
"What are they?"
"I can't tell you."

I do think Obama should try to craft a response to McCain's point that Obama has never reached across the aisle or defied his own party's leaders.

Don't forget the shortness of breath at times. Some 72 year-olds have the stamina to be president. John McCain is too old.

"Steady hand at the tiller" is not a line he should have used, much less TWICE.


And I'm not referring to his physical unattributes. He has a reputation for impetuousness which he so publically demonstrated to America with his non-suspended Campain Suspension stunt.

His rep as the completely out of control quasi-crazy man was inflated for all to see ... and when comparing him to Mr. Freeze Obama .... well, "steady hand at the tiller" was not something to say over and over.

Zogby's pretty much alone in that. Every poll I've been watching has Obama holding or increasing his lead.

Per the RealClearPolitics average of national tracking polls, they tightened by about 1 point over the last week.

But that is moot, the electoral map has only continued to swing towards Obama.

As Flippy said, that was the question. "Prioritize these." McCain did not. Obama did. The concept that we can do everything at once because "we're Americans, we can do anything, that's what we do in America, etc" was totally ridiculous.....and again, not an answer to the question.

That said, I was disappointed that Obama stepped on the format so much. I think he did it about twice as much as McCain did. At least, when he demanded to respond, it was for a good response....but it still irked me. Answer the questions, show respect for the moderator, the format, and your opponent.

CP, I agree with you. I found, to my eyes, neither candidate "won" neither one played the game as the rules were set out. I found that surprising since this is McCain's preferred mode, he looked far more uncomfortable than Obama did. But I was really irked that Obama took a long way around to answering the questions, when he did, since he is my candidate of choice. What part of answer the direct question do you not understand?

As well, Flippy, you read my mind, if I had been playing a drinking game, every time I heard "my friends" I would have been on the floor and gone within the first 45 minutes.

I think CBS showed it shrinking a bit after the VP debate.

But as Alex stated, the electoral map is HUGE for Obama right now. That's all that matters.

I wanted them to have a buzzer sound when their time up and have thier mikes cut out. That would have encouraged them to keep within their time limits. :argghh:

Well, for the next one, then. The light bulbs on the podium, right in front of the both of them, red, yellow, green. ;)

Electric shock. Although McCain would probably keep talking through the shocks to prove how tough he was.

Maybe for every extra ten seconds a candidate keeps talking, the moderator drowns a puppy.

I feel dumb. I had to look up "tiller".

Take away your pirate card! ;)

I know he's used that phrase to show he's an old navy man, but I couldn't help thinking of the Moby Dick chapter "Hand on the Tiller," which in school we discussed as indicative of the somewhat homoerotic leanings of the enterprise.

Maybe they can get a sound guy to bring a previously agreed upon theme song gradually up ...

I blame Tom Brokaw for the time violations. He should have interrupted them and moved them on when their time was up. Rather than whining afterwards about how they weren't following the rules.

Of course, I'm not sure why anybody would agree to moderate such an event in the first place. His only job was to read note cards out loud.

Hmm. Looks like I was wrong about that chapter heading. Turns out there's nothing gay about "Moby Dick."

Well, maybe this:

"Squeeze! squeeze! squeeze! all the morning long; I squeezed that sperm till I myself almost melted into it; I squeezed that sperm till a strange sort of insanity came over me; and I found myself unwittingly squeezing my co-laborers' hands in it, mistaking their hands for the gentle globules. Such an abounding, affectionate, friendly, loving feeling did this avocation beget; that at last I was continually squeezing their hands, and looking up into their eyes sentimentally; as much as to say, � Oh! my dear fellow beings, why should we longer cherish any social acerbities, or know the slightest ill-humor or envy! Come; let us squeeze hands all round; nay, let us all squeeze ourselves into each other; let us squeeze ourselves universally into the very milk and sperm of kindness.


Would that I could keep squeezing that sperm for ever! For now, since by many prolonged, repeated experiences, I have perceived that in all cases man must eventually lower, or at least shift, his conceit of attainable felicity; not placing it anywhere in the intellect or the fancy; but in the wife, the heart, the bed, the table, the saddle, the fireside, the country; now that I have perceived all this, I am ready to squeeze case eternally. In thoughts of the visions of the night, I saw long rows of angels in paradise, each with his hands in a jar of spermaceti."

I wasn't talking about the context of my quote. But.... Whatever.

Watch the Olbermann video I linked to. He states my stand on the use of 9/11 by Republicans perfectly.

Oh lordie this got long again...
 

I completely agree, "maverick" would've had me doing the ol' :rolleyes:

If nothing else, the debate to me didn't seem to have any clear winner on answers. They both did OK, but for the most part it was a snoozer. There were a couple of interesting moments, though, including:

McCain trying to (I *think*) say jokingly, "That one." Except as with most of the rest f his "jokes" during the debates, it fell flat. Worse, because of his general body posture and his odd whisper-speak tone of voice, it actually gave the phrase a kind of cruel tone. I can just see the Penguin referring to Batman and saying, "And you know who tried to save the burning building? That one! Nyuck nyuck nyuck." I don't think that's what he wanted to convey.

...and the bloggers are all over that one. "How dare McCain use such a phrase! He can't even bring himself to say Obama's name!"

Whatever. I think it's blown out of proportion. I thought it was an attempt a humor that fell flat. Although I REALLY don't think McCain meant it in an insulting manner, unfortunately for McCain, I think it came off that way.

When asked by Brokaw whom they would consider appointing as Secretary of the Treasury, McCain's first answer was, "Not you, Tom." HUH?

Yet again, McCain was trying to be funny. And it didn't work. I think part of the problem was that he didn't say anything else in that sentence, and it came out kind of brusque, so whatever disarming quality a joke may have provided there, completely missed. Brokaw was kind of taken aback by it initially too, I think.

When Obama mentioned that McCain said accused him of being green behind the ears and just spouting off, and how McCain is somber and responsible, McCain laughs in the background and says thank you.

Unfortunately for McCain, I think Obama had that whole line memorized... including that pregnant pause (and there was NO way to know that McCain would say anything, although it was almost like McCain fell right into the trap), because in his next breath, Obama said McCain was the guy who sang "bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran," called for the annihilation of North Korea, and said "next up, Baghdad."

Kind of shut McCain up real fast, that line did. I thought that was Obama's big zinger (especially since McCain took the bait).

However, Sen. Obama, the line is NOT "bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran." You left off a few bombs there. Would've been better if you'd said it right.

[And while I'm at it, McCain may have mentioned that as some sort of inside joke or attempt at humor, but I heard Rachel Maddow later say that the McCain camp started using the Beach Boys' BarbaraAnn song in his stumpings afterwards, so it may have been a joke but they did run with it.]
I think McCain wanted to come out with something new and shiny, that he could offer to the audience as a take-away from the debate. I agree that just buying them up is terrible; it will simply encourage everyone who feels even remotely financially challenged to throw up their hands and ask for government assistance. It would be far easier to have government help these folks renegotiate their mortgages to get a better interest rate or help them get off of their adjustable-rate mortgages so it's not fluctuating so much.
That's because the debate format from last night was unlike any town hall format McCain's ever had. That wasn't a town hall. Like Alex said, it was two parallel press conferences.

The town halls McCain does is much more free-wheeling. The moderator barely moderates at all. The audience last night were required to read off the question they had submitted; the regular ones don't have such restrictions. And most of all, in town halls the candidate gets to take more time answering the question, and then have a back-and-forth exchange with the person asking the question. The audience member can ask for clarification, disagree with the candidate, whatever. It has the potential to be a very interesting exchange.

This town hall didn't resemble anything like that. It was terrible.
Very ineffective for me because I didn't know what a tiller was. Since it's a rudder on a small boat, it makes sense since McCain is an old Navy guy, but I think it would've been far more effective for him to use the imagery of navigating a large carrier through dangerous waters or something. Instead, "tiller" made me think of a till plowing through a little vegetable garden. So I got this image in my head of an old man holding the till in an old garden. Plodding and old. Not good.
I thought it was amusing at the end when the two senators went to stand together to face the audience, and in so doing, blocked Brokaw's view of the teleprompter... and Brokaw had to ask them to move so he could read the monitor. lol.

Time Limits - -this was the first time i can recall that the "stop lights" were clearly visible on screen, since they were set up on the floor of a theater-in-the-round.

And Brokaw did not wait until the answers were over, he was constantly making noises and motions to the candidates to indicate that time was up ... but he did not go so far as to be rude enough to directly interrupt United States Senators. Sheesh.

Brokaw was easily the best moderator of the current batch so far. While he didn't chide the candidates for failing to answer the questions, he repeatedly did so for failing to follow the agreed rules of format, but did that without being completely improper and rude. He is not a man with a hook on vaudeville night.


It bugged me insanely when Obama refused to even remotely answer the question on one or two occassions. Just as Swiftboating is a now verb, Palining has quickly become one, too. He Palined more than once, and it was shameful.



That said, he kicked McCain's sorry old asz.

I'll say. Yccck. We don't like it that much. ;)

And thanks, Tenigma, for that explanation of real town hall vs. faux town hall.

And so, the error still goes to McCain for approving faux town hall ... when it's just going to look to the TV viewer seeing their first McCain town hall wonder why he looks so unbelievably uncomfortable in his preferred format.

I felt it was appropriate for Obama to focus on correcting McCain's misstatements before he addressed the question at hand. If he had just let some of those comments sit and moved on, he'd have looked like a complete arsehole. I'm glad that he focused more on saying what he needed to than he did on flashing lights.

I thought Brokaw kicked a$$ as a moderator. McCains, "Not you, Tom," comment irked me to no end. Completely out of place and just totally rude.

McCain looked sooooo old!

I think in general Obama answered questions more specifically than McCain. Though his complete non-answering of the last question was beyond annoying. He could have pulled off something inspiring and smooth and he totally failed.

What were the bracelets they were wearing?

Watch the first debate tapes for explanation of the bracelets.

They are bracelets naming a soldier killed in Iraq. For McCain his was given by someone asking that he make sure the soldier not die in vain and this means keeping the war going to "victory." For Obama, his came from a mother asking that no other mother be put through what she was and this means getting out of the distraction that is Iraq and being more restrictive in the use of force and with much better defined targets.

It looks like Brokaw had some work done.

They're memory bracelets for fallen soldiers from Iraq. You can find YouTube videos from the first presidential debate the other week where they talk about it. McCain's was given to him by a mom who asked that McCain "don't give up the cause" while Obama's was given to him by a mom who asked that "other moms don't have to experience the pain" of losing a child to soldiering.

Hahaha, is anybody besides me amused at Tenigma and Alex parroting each other?




Poor John. He tried to lighten things up with humor, and it failed every time. In fact, backfired badly ... even though I think it was clear his intent was to be funny, not mean. But he should have stopped after the second or third failed attempt at levity.


"Not you, Tom" was a really messed up thing to say out of the blue.

"That one" was so tone deaf, especially after insulting the intelligence of that other black guy who asked you a question. Net result: Racism, asshole.


There were about half a dozen other jokes that fell flat.

Don't quit your day job, John.


That, plus your attitude, plus your infirmaties on display, plus the sinister way you smile. Maybe those last two aren't your fault. And I don't doubt your attempts at humor were just that. But appearances are everything, personality is what matters to the voters.

Nixon won the debate against JFK for those listening on radio. Nowadays, John, everyone watches on TV.


You were Nixon.



BuBye.

Rather a pity nobody was watching....

Well you know what they say about crotchety old married couples.

I was doing a vanity spellcheck on my long post and by the time I posted the reply, I saw that he'd beat me to it. I was too lazy to go back and revise my post.

I also saw more shots of Obama listening to McCain as he spoke. (Yeah, maybe he wasn't really listening but it gave the the appearance that he was.) McCain seemed distracted, sometimes didn't look at him.

The pacing back and forth kinda bugged me.

ETA: And I'd also like to add that I would be terrible in a debate like this. Much less it being televised and the whole world is watching... So I guess kudos are in order to all of them.

I think this was intentional ... McCain kept walking into Obama's television shot while Obama was answering, forcing the cameramen to hastily switch to a far less flattering shot of Obama that didn't have McCain in it.

Once, twice - yeah, a mistake. No less than 12 times? Sorry, on purpose to get in the shot with your opponent and gain more air time or, maybe giving McCain too much smarts credit, forcing less flattering shots of your opponent.


Sorry, John. There can be no less flattering shots than you limping all over the place, cradling your useless limb of an arm, smiling like you're going to blow up the planet for the mad scientific fun of it, and wheezing all the while from the effort.


UGH. :mad:

A good point made (at fivethirtyeight.com) regarding McCain's slight gains in some polls over the last week:

Obama is showing somewhere around 6, 7, or 8% leads (11% on Gallup!). Over the last 20 years, the largest spread in a general election has been 8.5%. So Obama's pushing the bounds of how far he can swing the electorate. With that big of a lead, there's pretty much nowhere for him to go BUT down. There are certainly fewer and fewer undecideds to gain. So a point or two back in McCain's direction is not surprising, nor particularly significant.

Popcorn for tonight's debate - check!
Water balloons - no need

I'll have to once again catch the highlights after the fact as I've got other plans for tonight. For my own blood pressure, that's probably a good thing.

Dude, I forgot that was tonight. Good thing I turned down going to the movies!

Am I old now, because I'd rather see the debate than go see Jurassic Park in the theater?

I'm assuming that you've seen Jurassic Park in the theater.

On the other hand, tonight's debate will be fresh and new.

Baseball or politics. It's a tough choice. Although the game tonight might not be much better for your blood pressure.

Actually I'll be playing pool (and watching the game)

That too. Jurassic Park was great, don't get me wrong, but I'm perfectly content to watch it on DVD in the future (at some point if I felt like Netflixing it)

And I haven't caught an ENTIRE debate live yet this election. Keep coming home late and stuff.

Question: is this the last debate now?

Yes, this is the last scheduled debate.

I fear my other plans may raise my blood pressure more than watching the debate.

Not unless you also do the following: the phone rings on a Saturday night and you hope it's not for you.

I read this thread as "Debates of all elk". On purpose. Just for fun.

In Northern AZ there are signs all over I-10 and I-17 to watch out for elk. I say we take the down. Damn the elk and the drivers that hit them! Are they worthy of our tax dollars to put signs up warning us of stupid elk that wander into traffic? I say we let them die and strengthen the elk gene pool.

That's about as much elk debating as I can think of.

On the 5 freeway near Camp Pendelton that says caution, possible dust clouds the next 11 miles. I've never seen a dust cloud and I want to know how they remain in the signs.

There are also signs that say no running across the freeway with flying children behind you.

I've tried ground elk before and it's rather tasty.

Leo, I say tax the elk to pay for the signs.

:D

Damn liberal

"my friends"
"look..."
"fundamental"

"ok? OK!?"

McCain's been watching YouTube. Joe the Plumber, heh.

"I am not President Bush."

So far, it's pretty even, but I'd give McCain the edge so far. When he's not wandering around he looks less ancient.

I think John McCain's seen the "Sarah Palin is a *unt" t-shirt.

What a maroon - Does Madman McCain not understand how many years the design/licensing of a nuclear power plant takes?

I'd never be a good president, if some asshole talked to me like that across a table, I don't care if he's some kind of respected cripple, I'd make sure he couldn't use his mouth, either. :mad:

Agreed, he has not hit his mark, where he claimed that he was going to change his tone and be respectful. He's still condescending, he can't help it.

I think they're going to say McCain won....not that it can help him now.

Just because McCain wasn't the total failure he was in the first two debates does not mean he won. But if he wins by lowering the bar so much by his prior poor performances that, in the words of Queen Ifil, not throwing up is considered a win ... then, um, congratulations, Mr. McCain.

I think Obama wiped the floor with him. Every potentially reasonable thing McCain said was undermined by stupid crap that his campaign fed him: redistribution of wealth, Joe the Plumber, ACORN, Ayers and that Ralph Kramden nervousness.

Hey, Joe, Senator Obama thinks your kid should spend less of his family time playing video games.

On this specific point, I think this is the biggest part of McCain's plan....speeding up the process. Right now it is nearly impossible to build one and fast tracking is what McCain is pushing for.

It does not require a different design for each power plant. Of course, there will be variations, but the technology does not have to be reengineered.

For the debate overall....eh, I thought McCain made better points, but he made the points that would more appeal to me. Likewise for Obama supporters and points he made.

Regardless, though, I don't think McCain did anything to change the current circumstances his campaign is in. The polling companies that make their money having accurate result, being Zogby and Rasmussen, have it at 3.8 and 5 respectively. I think there may be a half point move for McCain simply because he did better than he had and perhaps gave a bit more confidence to his doubters. And, yeah, ISM, that's the beauty of lowered expectations I suppose.

I will still not be voting for either.

The only thing left is to see which side has the biggest October surprise come out from some source that they can each distance themselves from having been involved in putting out. I would suspect that since McCain has been around in the public spotlight so much longer that one about Obama has trhe potential to be far more damaging. You know each side has something they are holding until after this last debate.

For the first part of the debate, McCain was solid. But then he just kinda went downhill. He sounded condescending at times to Obama. It didn't play well for him.

I liked the way Obama stayed cool all the way through.

I also think that Obama's answer on Roe v Wade was great.

McCain's sighing and some of his looks to Obama were annoying. To put up the mirror, it was annoying with Gore as well.

And I remember the first Bush - Kerrey debate when I felt like vomiting because of how aweful Bush was making faces at Kerrey. I mean, good lord, dude, you're the POTUS.

GC, I respect so much that you are using the "mirror" thing....I think the thing that bugs me most is the my party and/or candidate is always right and infallible attitude that seems to be so pervasive in politics.

"look" - 11
"my friends" - 1
"fundamental" - 4

I'm going to call it Leo's Mirror.
:D
No, honestly, I'm all for being in someone else's shoes. I try to do it when my temper doesn't get in the way.

But at the same time, I must admit that I get confused when you use it some of the time. When someone brings up an instance where person A messed up and you point out that person B messed up too it doesn't diminish what person A did in the first place.
I don't know if I explained that well. And rereading it, I'm still not sure.

Pretty low counts, really. no one would have passed out during their drinking game at least.

I just want to see what exactly McCain was busily scribbling on his notepad while giving Obama the one eyebrow raise.

Yes. I guess they caught on.
:D

Another thing I forgot to mention was that neither nailed their closing speech. It left me feeling kinda empty concerning both of them.

I think he was drawing a picture of a pony.

Maybe a donkey?

:D

from fivethirtyeight.com

With Obama riding into Jerusalem on it.

RELAX!!!!! It's a joke.

Well, not to further the lovefest, but I found it funny.


mousepod - I seriously thought it was more even than that. I didn't feel like Obama had it in the bag... Dunno. Just my gut feeling at the time.

"Health" in finger quotes. What an azshat. I think that's gonna cost him. De womenz ain't gonna like that.

Would it disturb you if I said that I love you for that remark. :D

McCain said "Freddie Mae". I know that drag queen. She's fabulous.
:D

I hope no one was playing the 'Drink a shot every time McCain blinks' game. :eek:


I was totally distracted by all that blinking, and then I read at the Huffington post that the count was over 3000 in a 90 minute period. Annoying as all hell.

No, but you, ISM , and MBC might have to have some sort of slap fight over me. :)

While it may be annoying, anyone who feels the need to count them has issues.

Joe the plumber has made his thoughts on the Obama tax plan known in no uncertain terms.

The reason the polls always tilt toward Obama even when, as happened last night, McCain does reasonably well ... is that more people just plain like Obama's demeanor and what he has to say better.

A debate is won or lost on more than just "points."


McCain got angrier and testier as the debate wore on. He may have been more controlled this time, but his 'tude is obnoxious and viewers don't like it.

The section about their respective campaigns did McCain no good. His protestations to the contrary, public perception is that his campaign is far more negative than Obama's. And perception is everything.

Obama pwnzored him about Bill Ayers and ACORN, and McCain looked like a fool when he just wouldn't let it go.


But, yeah, most damaging (imo) was his belittling of women's health concerns when it comes to abortion. Can you see him putting men's health concerns in litlte finger quotes and dismissing that as some far left radical agenda? (And John, that "agenda" happens to be the agenda of the United States Supreme Court and the Law of the Land ... not some far left radical plot. You, Sir, are a DickWad and, may I add, a FvckTard to boot.)

In fairness to McCain, his shorthand comment about women's health was reasonably legitimate and speaks to the attempts to expand the health exception to include mental health, emotional health, etc. The format did not permit an extended discussion, but he could have done a far better job of flagging the issue than he did.

So maybe Obama didn't wipe the floor with McCain. McCain did. He certainly kept sticking mop handles up his butt and handing them to Obama.

I'm sorry, but f*ck Joe the Plumber.

Re: Obama
Uh, did Obama compare himself to Robin Hood? Or is this Joe's analogy? It sounds to me that Joe is calling himself a peasant and blaming Barack for it.
Source

Not to mention that Joe isn't even in the income bracket Obama is talking about.
Source

I wish he'd put out some "men's" health concerns.

One reason helth care is so much more expensive is stuff that never used to be possible to treat. Now we have viagara being covered but no one wants their premiums to go up as more and more things are covered. That's but one example, but you get the idea.

GC, Joe the Plumber understands, as the WSJ pointed out in great detail, the Obama is LIEING about his tax cuts for the middle class. Also, the whoel Robin Hood thing is exactly what's going on. Obama is going to tax the wealthy more to give money to those who don't even pay federal income taxes. This is not even in question. You may not like the analogy, but it is certainly accurate. He wants to take more from the wealthy and give it to those who pay any federal income taxes.

I'm sorry, Joe is sounding racist to me. And Joe is making up stuff and saying that Obama is calling him a peasant.

Joe's not making $250,000. So how does his situation apply to Obama's proposal? He's bringing up a hypothetical and then blasting Obama for it. "Well, he may lower that." We don't know if that's the course he's going to take on a tax cut that hasn't been implemented yet. At this point, you could say Obama will do a thousand things.

Joe is one man with one opinion whose head has been inflated for the world to see like a Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade balloon by McCain.

And if we want to talk about the WSJ, uh, which way does that paper lean? They say Obama is lying. Well I have to do is find one publication that says the opposite to counter your WSJ argument, Leo.

The WSJ link I posted lays out exactly what his plan entails. Either it does or it doesn't. If you dispute what it says, fine.

He sounds racist? Because he doesn't trust Obama when Obama is redefining what a tax cut even is? A tax cut means you pay less taxes. Obama now defines it as giving money to people who have paid no fdederal income taxes.

I thought Joe's concerns were about the business he wants to buy that makes more than $250,000 and would bump him into a new tax bracket.

I hate when Robin Hood is misconstrued. In the RH scenario, the taxes levied against the people are unfair and are not used to serve the people, but only pad the pockets of the royalty. Robin Hood doesn't steal from the rich - he takes back the poor's money from the rich and returns it to its rightful owners.

If Joe wanted to use RH as an analogy, he should have said that Obama was taxing unfairly.

That's my understanding, too. "Joe the Plumbing Contractor" would be a more accurate name but it sounds less everyman.

Oy. You missed my point.
See above.
Again. This is Joe the Plummer on Obama:
I find that to be a underhanded, insulting comment directed at Obama.
If he didn't mean it that way, he needed to think about what it would sound like.
----------------------

On the lighter side of the debate: (SFW)

Didn't finish reading, but have to ask ... scaeagles, just how is it that Obama's Fiat-passed tax plan (um, the president has no power to order any such thing) going to give money to people who pay no federal income taxes? Are they going to be sent checks? Or will cash payments come via secret service agents at their doors?


BTW, like it or not, wealth redistribution is a very popular idea. And cries of socialism of any kind ring rather hollow right now. It's clear to America we roll over and become a socialist nation when it suits the very rich who gamble recklessly with everybody else's money ... and now those same "everybody" want a little socialism of their own.

Jeez read the comments, yikes, Americans at their finest. :mad:

SFW and kinda disturbing, too.

GC already pointed out what you apparently missed, but I'm repeating it because I'm astounded by what a tin ear you seem to have. Apparently, Joe the Plumber's ears are equally tin (or perhaps copper would be more appropriate). In any event, he clearly wasn't ready for the prime time suddenly foisted upon him, and did not take careful consideration to how his words would sound .... or, alternatively, he's an unabashed racist.

But, um, comparing Obama to a tap-dancing Sammy Davis, Jr. is a fracking racist remark.


Joe's an azshat for saying it ... and I'm rather shocked you simply glossed over it, scaeagles, and professed not to understand what was racist about Joe's remarks.

How many famous tap dancers can you name off the top of your head?

Who comes to mind first?

How in the hell is that racist?

In other words, most people are fracking idiots ... and hence the unfathomable popularity of conservativism.

Yeah, whatdya know? -- all the ones I think of are black. Maybe I betta shut the fvck up so's I don't come off like a RACIST when making personal comparisons to the first black presidential candidate.

Fred Astaire, Ginger Rodgers...

You are letting color dictate your speech. Because Sammy was black you think he cannot be compared to Obama. Joe was color blind and just compaired a tap dancing politician to a real tap dancer. So who's the racist here?

Gents
Fred Astaire
Gene Kelly
The Nicholas Brothers

Ladies
Ann Miller
Ruby Keeler
Ginger Rogers

Joe the Plumbing Contractor. The implication was that Sen. Obama shucks and jives.

Re: the distraction called Joe the Plumbing Contractor. Joe's income over $250,000 would be taxed at 39%, rather than the current 36%. So if Joe the Plumber makes $300,000, his tax bill goes up $1,500. That's $125 a month.

My cell phone bill is more than that. Joe is a Kool-Aid-drinking Republican plant. Old-style Karl Rove politics and so terribly, terribly tired.

How could I have forgotten gene Kelly?!

Shoot, I was right about Joe the Plumbing Contractor being a Republican plant.

Source

A plant? Oh good grief. He's a real American with real views and real concerns. Extra taxes on any group is going to cause concern within that group or in this case, someone who is working hard to be in that group.

Is it really necessary to vilify anyone that opposes your master plans?

Scratch that last line of mine. You answered the question before I could even pose it.

That's pretty much the basic question we're all asking the McCain campaign.

Great, so because Bush and McCain both play the game that way, it's OK for Obama?

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Frankly I was hoping for better. I guess I should look into getting a seeing eye dog soon.

First? Obviously the white Australians from "Tap Dogs." Cagney, Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire.

Actually, probably Savion Glover, Gregory Hines and the Nicholas Brothers.

The problem with the Sammy Davis, Jr. comment is that when I think of him tap dancing I think of him as a child performer dancing frantically to please white people. Perhaps not what Joe the Plumber had in mind, but . . . perhaps it is.

Like I said, whether he meant for it to sound racist or not, it definitely played that way. I think that's poor judgment on Mr. Wurzelbacher's part. You're talking to Katie Couric, millions of people just heard your name 26 times in a presidential debate... I'm thinking I'd be watching what I say.
I'm sorry, Moonie, but I believe his comment sounded completely racist.

Sorry, all I see here is fear.

You all have an agenda you want to achieve, and "Joe" is seen as a threat to that agenda. Therefore he must be destroyed. His motives questioned, his character trashed. The ends justify the means. Truth is, well truth is just not that important. Perception is king.


Note you can replace "Joe" with: "Charles H. Keating", "William Ayers", "Rev. Wright", "Cindy Hensley", "AIG" or a dozen other names. Some bad some not but all being used as pawns to gain an advantage. The game remains the same.

Joe is no victim here. Joe has been stumping for McCain by saying things like "Oh, I won't say who I'm voting for, but I'm against Socialism". Joe is being used by both sides. Agendas all around...
In the end, the publicity will help his business. You can't have a better ad than what happened last night and all day today.

Unfortunately we don't have any black swankers here to comment. In fact, this whole place is suspiciously lacking in members of color.

So just go ahead and compare the next black person you speak with to Sammy Davis, Jr. and tap-dancing, and see if it's taken kindly.




Hmm, seems like the only minorities represented on the LoT are queers and jews ... and I'm both. So I can tell you outright that any comparison to a famous fag and things gays used to have to do to get in good with straights, or to a famous jew and things jews used to have to do to get in good with gentiles, and I would sure as shuck and jive take offense at it.



But don't take my word for it, Moonliner ... go and make that Sammy Davis tap-dancing crack to the next black man you encounter. ;)

I completely missed that. My bad....I would agree that is certainly racist in the overtones.

No, I see your point of view.

I see a tap dancing politician (in Joe's opinion) compared to a world class tap dancer.

What you see is a comment about race, oppression and hatred.

I guess we all bring our preconceived notions to the world we see around us.

I guess so. And I can see the harmlessness and true point of Joe's statement that has nothing to do with racism.

But since I can also see how it can be also be taken poorly as a racist remark, I might think twice before I said it on national TV.

I appreciate Joe had only 1 night's warning of glory-filled dream sleep before being thrust onto the national stage. But if he had a clue about recent history and Katie Couric (cough*Palin*cough) he might have still been a tad more carful about his words.

There are Asian Americans on this board. According to my family I could be anywhere from a 1/4 to 1/2 Chinese.
And there's a Hawaiian on this board. That's me. I have 1/4 Hawaiian.
:)

I am a republican. Around here, certainly a minority!

And all this because Joe's too stupid to incorporate his business.

Oooh, here's a gem from this interview with Joe the Plumbing Contractor:
Okay, so there are parts of that I agree with, but OMFG call the authorities, the populace gets upset when their checks are late! Oh the horror! The arrogance! They feel "entitled" to the money they earned through their labor, can you imagine?

*snark*