What else happened at Disneyland last Sunday?
 

Y'know, I have to admit that I've been almost completely off the other boards since I got back this week. Work has been pretty intense, the MousePod pins showed up, I've been feverishly editing the Dave O'Neal interview for the next show...
So imagine my surprise when I read here that Jim Hill was kicked out of Disneyland on Sunday while giving one of his tours.
I apologize if this isn't news to anyone here, but I find it... interesting.
His side of the story is obviously on his site, http://www.jimhillmedia.com/ .

Seems like there's a lot of noise (as there always is on the 'net), not sure if it means much of anything. Opinions?

Oh, Jim is always pissing off the Disney folks- nothing new there. He's actually fairly conciliatory in that last article, although he is serving notice that Disney is cracking down on unauthorized tours, etc. I don't know if anything weird, or weirder than usual, is going down- just the usual Disney management JH reaction. Do you know the story behind his being barred from attending the shareholders revolt?

Ugh. I'm rather annoyed at him making money from showing people around Disneyland. :mad:

Always reminds me of the money changers in the temple... but I don't like pintraders either :p

How do you feel about people making money off a certain game inside the park that arguably disrupts the guest experience far more than any unauthorized tour?

He's cashing in on his expertise, I don't have a problem with that. But Disneyland is private property, so the park is certainly within it's rights to control what business takes place there.

Jim pushes the limits - always. So, I'm not suprised. Fab has done paid tours inside the park as well in the past.

As for people making money off of the park, two of the "big" Disney sites have stores that re-sell park merchandise at a profit. Disney doesn't do this, so they provide a good service to those who live far away. I've heard rumors over and over that Disney will be cracking down on that too, but they haven't so far. If they provided a park catalog service themselves, they'd put an end to this, but they don't seem to want to get into that business. Good for these 2 stores!

It was dumb of him to start his tour at the Tour Guide Gardens, and it was dumb of him to not make sure all of his tour members were there for his tour. He knows he's pushing the limits, why would he not use some common sense and start his tour elsewhere, and ensure that all his people had paid for his tour? Disneyland knows this stuff goes on; tours, MouseAdventure, GayDays, etc., take three of their paying guests away, and suddenly there are going to be policies. :slightly irritated smiley:
:TOOT!:

I read in one articla where the author interviewed Jim while he was in Hawaii visiting he daughter. Is Jim Hill Fab's father?

Jim and Fab were married and had a daughter, who still lives in Hawaii with her mother.

HAHAHAHATOOT(breath)HAHATOOT!!!

MA isn't similar to a service provided by Disney. Tours are provided by Disney, and providing your own tour in it's stead is stealing their business, much like selling bootleg merchandise. I don't go to the park and sell cotton candy or homemade mouseears.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "good for them" but rather, "Disney is stupid, and until they get a clue, they deserve to be taken advantage of by the online stores."

How is Disney stupid? The online stores still buy the mechandise from Disney, so Disney is still making a profit.

Disney could be doing the mail-order thing and be making the profit that those online sellers are getting. "Shipping and Handling" adds up to a lot.

Now, now you two. Kiss and make up.

Not to mention the 25-30% markup that the online stores get.

I understand why Disney doesn't merchandise the product outside of the resorts - the foot traffic is high and the idea of a guest "discovering" something special might lead to more impulse shopping. Disney is clearly not stupid when it comes to merchandising.
I also think that there's nothing basically wrong with shopping sites and on-line resellers. They charge a fee for obtaining goods for lazy people. In the age of internet shopping, most B&M stores do the same thing.
What bugs me about the online sites selling currently available park stuff is that they don't make it clear that all of the merchandise is available through Disney mail-order. They also don't list the official retail cost of the product they're reselling. That might not be wrong, but it's tacky.
I just ordered a book and a dvd from WDW mail-order. My cost, including shipping was $105.90. If I bought the same goods from laughing place, my cost would have been $141.96. That's quite a mark-up.
Rather than complain about this, though, I'm going to do something about it. Starting with the next MousePod, I'm going to suggest that all of my listeners who are interested in buying Park merchandise go to lp, check out what they want, and call Disney mail-order. Simple as that.

Well, I would guess that a vast majority of the people buying from LP and MS don't live near a Disney Resort. If I lived in Montana and really wanted a Shag Tiki shirt, I think the $12 markup plus shipping and handling would be significantly less than the plane ticket, transportation and admission (OK, save the $50 and buy from WOD).

Right, but I believe MousePod was refering to the fact that Disney does do mail order (Deliver Ears?), they just don't catalogue and market the items in the park. That's the "value added" to the online stores.

My gut says that the market for park-specific merchandise outside of the parks themselves is not particularly huge. It's there, but most people only want park mechandise if they're at a park. So while Disney makes it available, it doesn't make much sense for them to put up the overhead to catalog and advertise. But if some 3rd party wants to cater to that niche, the merch. sales generated for Disney are gravy, with no extra overhead. Seems like win-win to me.

Well, Disney allows it. It is no secret that LP and MP have a "shopping service" - LP is out of WDW and MP is out of DLR. For people in the midwest who collect anteana balls, this is about their only route. There is a lot of merchandise on these sites the people don't even notice in the parks. MP also has a sister site called Charming Shoppe for non-park, licensed collectables. There's some cross over there, but not a lot.

GD, I don't disagree with you, but I do think that it's a lot cooler to feed off laziness and be up front about it, than to ignorance. Since Disney doesn't have on-line ordering, you have to pick up the phone, call Disney mail-order and spend a few minutes talking to the CM to figure out what items you want. If LP makes it clear that you can save money by going through that "hassle", then all the power to them. By creating a site that's purports to be an authority on Disney theme parks, while conveniently leaving out the fact that DeliverEARS is available, it borders on creepy.
Your win-win situation applies to LP and Disney. The loser is the consumer.
Blah.

Y'know, as I re-read this thread, it occurs to me that Kevy and NA seem to think that LP and MS are providing a service that is otherwise unavailable. Other than showing pictures of the merchandise, that's simply not true. Just pick up the phone and call WDW. They'll send your antenna balls anywhere you want. And they'll be cheaper.

I think LP & MS are banking on people not knowing how to contact the parks.

LP and MP also have the advantage of having websites with detailed pictures where Disney does not. If you don't have access to the parks, it is the only way to see this stuff and the impulse is to buy. So, in a way, they are providing a service that Disney does not provide. When you are shopping, visuals are everything.

They can also do things that Disney might not - Mouse Ears with your screen name for example.

Exactly my point. Disney avoids the overhead of cataloging and advertising, essentially outsourcing it to MP and LP, while still selling the goods. So as long as MP and LP stay on Disney's relative good side, everyone's happy.

Really? I have a hard time imagining Doobie hunched over a Singer, practicing GothMansionLover83 or Buzzhighscor31228 on a napkin.
Actually, I don't have a hard time imagining that, I have a vivid imagination. I just want to know where they get the hats done. :D

This could be wrong, but the way I understand it, they have a CM contact (maybe many) that works in the park and will do it when people aren't looking. If that is true, it pisses me off much more than anything else.

Thanks to mousepod for explaining the problem with DeliverEars, I didn't know much about it...this all makes more sense now and I'm less annoyed with MP/LP.

especially for antenna balls:D

TOOT ZING BAM BOOM:cheers:

The showing of pictures is a HUGE service (as compared to not having that critical part of the service available). People are willing to pay more for better service (I do it all the time!).

To inform the public how to cheat by utilizing the service portion of a web site (at no cost) and then buying the item they like from another source just so they can save a couple of dollars does not sound too ethical to me.

On the flip side (in other words, I do not blindly support either of the two businesses in question), if MS an LPS are getting unfair purchasing advantages (which I know MS has specifically said they don't, but Michael Jaclson says there is a conspiracy against him), then I DO have a problem with that

And what does all this have to do with Jim Hill getting thrown out of DL on Ostara?

You haven't heard my show yet, so you have absolutely no idea how I'm going to frame it for the audience. Truth is never unethical. What I think is unethical, is LP performing a "service" and not telling their audience that they're charging more than 35% for the service. If they simply stated that they were marking the prices up that much and why their service was better and easier than DeliverEARS, no sweat. They don't. Instead, they rely on the ignorance of their readers to turn a profit.
I don't doubt that they're doing a service by showing fans pictures of what's available. However, I learned of the "Art of Disneyland" book from a message board. I knew about the EPCOT DVD from a CM in Florida. I saved $40 (not just "a couple of dollars") over LPs price by making a call to Florida. I'm not an insider, I'm informed.

This relates to Jim Hill because it's about someone taking money by "adding value" to something that is already available by the parent company.
IMHO, Jim screwed up by starting the tour where people who expected the official tour might get confused and join his.

Kevy, would it be more ethical if I started a thread and posted pictures of park product that I got from places other than LP and MS and told people to call Disney and avoid rip-off artists?

LP and MS have to deal with the same problem as Amazon.com. They have a great online catalogue, makes recommendations to me , alerts me when things I want become available. But if I really want immediate gratification, I stop at my local Barns & Noble or Tower Records. But Amazon has decided that making theses services free brings in enough revenue to support it.

LP and MS could try a different model and charge a subscription for their catalogue service, but that may drive away more customers.

Another value add for MS, is they do stock certain items and will do their best to get limited edition merchadise that wouldn't necessarily be available from Disney - though in those circumstances Ebay becomes the competition.

Except Amazon is cheaper than Barnes & Noble or Tower. In your case, you are paying extra for the added value of instant gratification.

Or they could explain to customers what their value is, and hope that an "educated consumer" would want to continue shopping from them.
Value of LP & MS:
- notification of new merchandise
- pictures of said merch
- limited edition availability
- easier to navigate than calling Disney direct

It's the fact that they 1) imply that the only other way to get the merch is to go to the parks, and 2) they have a huge surcharge without telling people exactly what the surcharge is, that makes them less than stellar in my book.

Don't forget shipping ;)

Amazon offers free ground shipping on most orders over $25.

Don't forget sales tax at B&N or Tower ;)

Which, you are still by California law obligated to pay ;)

But yeah - that "free shipping" has caused me many a time to add another item from my wish list to my intended order. Not that I'm ever able to leave either B&N or Tower with just one item either. I am weak, and the retailers are on to me.

Amazon also has no overhead of having stores to maintain. It make it easier for them to sell at a reduced prive. MP and LP pay full price for their merchandise at the park, an employee has to have an AP to get into the park regularly, then an employee has to prepare to ship the merchandise and pay for the associated costs of mailing and shipping. (I know a lot about one operation because I worked for the sister store.) Even at that, there is not a big profit involved in what they do.

Yes, smart people can look at the merchandise on MP or LP then call DeliverEars, but for them to advertise this fact would be the ruin of their business.

Other than:
That's all the framework I need to believe that it is unethical. Take advantage of one service at no cost then buy elsewhere. In the grand sceme of things, not all *that* unethical, but unethical none-the-less.

Now this is an interesting statement. If I were to find out you home address, phone number, etc. and published it here, would that be unethical? I think it would be and therefore would not do it.

For my job, I work for a print broker. That means we "buy" printing services from companies and "sell" it to our customers. If my vendors approached my clients and told them for how much and where I was purchasing this from, not only would this be unethical, there would probably be basis for a lawsuit.

To make this more specific...

Okay, if you think that the business practices of LP and MS are unethical, are you going to stand outside your local 7-11 to tell people they can buy most of the merchandise in the store much less expensively? And then go to that supermarket and tell them they can now get a lot of that merchandise even less expensively at Costco, Walmart, etc.?

Heck, for that matter, once you find the cheapest possible place to buy something, should that place be required to show how much they purchased said item for?

Should the local gas station be required to post where in the area you can purchase the same brand cheaper? Should employers be required to tell employees where they can get paid more for the same job (and employees be required to tell their employers how much less somebody is geting paid for doing the same job elsewhere?). Should Disney ticket sellers be required to tell the guests how much it costs to get into Knotts? Shall I go on?

You are perfectly entitled to inform people that they can purchase items they want for less at another place - happens all the time and is perfectly legit. This is a wonderful component of the free enterprise system: caveat emptor. but to 1) believe that what LP and MS are doing is "unethical" is ludicris, and 2) tell people how to usurp a system as has been inferred is unethical and hypocritical. You are perfectly entitled to do it, I just don't agree with it.

I don't really give a rip about MS and LP. I purchased one item from MS last year only because a friend told me they had it and I never saw it in the park (a Mickey trailer hitch cover). I didn't have to pay S/H because I made a local pickup. Other than that, I have never gone to either of these sites.

You're missing my point.

1 - I have no intention of telling people to go to LP or MS and then call Disney. What I will tell people is that park merchandise can be bought at places other than theme parks. One place to get that stuff is through shopping services like LP or MS, where you have the benefit of internet shopping with pictures, but know that you'll pay a 35% markup. The other place is to call Disney direct. If people want to draw conclusions on how to shop, all the power to them. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear earlier.

2 - The difference between all of your examples and the one at hand is the question of "common knowledge". Most consumers know that shopping clubs like Costco are cheap, and quickie-marts like 7-Eleven are expensive. LP calls itself "The #1 Site For Disney" - setting itself up as an authority on all things Disney, especially parks. In this case, a lie of omission costs you, the consumer, 35%.

As far as me standing outside the 7-Eleven and telling people to shop at Costco, that's silly. However, if I had an internet radio show that focused on electronics, for example, I would probably have no problem to tell my listeners to shop around and check out all of the digital cameras anywhere they could, and if they decided on a specific brand, make sure to check CostCo or onecall.com for the cheapest prices.

I would imagine that your company offers something to your customers that they couldn't get elsewhere. Whether that be the ability to run small orders or simply better customer service. If not, and you just take advantage of the fact that most people don't want to spend the energy to go to the Yellow Pages, well, that's an interesting ethics question in itself.

Yeah, I don't think it's such a big deal. The websites have to pay full retail for the items they're selling, The resorts pay (probably far less than is fair to the manufacturer) wholesale. The resort isn't losing out on a sale, and the person who buys off a website is paying for a shopping service. When I worked at Disneyland, we knew that guests could call the Park and order any merchandise they wanted and have it delivered. It's one of those "extras" and examples of good customer service we all like about Disneyland.
I don't think it's unethical for a shopping service to charge a fee, although they might do better to post the "in-Park" price, and then how much they're charging you to do your shopping for you. Service based businesses have to charge what the market will bear. How do you know how much personalized shopping is worth to people? Run a business doing it for a couple of years and find out what people are willing to pay.
I would guess that if you're doing your shopping on a website, you're probably participating on the message boards. You're probably pretty "Disney savvy," no matter where you live. I can't imagine you'd be ignorant of "Disney Deliv-ears."
Anyhoo, I manufacture and sell a product at a number of different price points. Retail, wholesale, shipping, farmer's markets, etc. I know some of my stores also do delivery of my product. Is it any of my business to know what these stores are charging? Not really. Once they've bought the product from me, it's theirs to do with as they please. I have customers who like to buy direct from me, and customers who prefer to do their shopping through a favorite store's website.
All in all, I'd say not to worry about the people who don't use Disney Deliv-ears. Disney doesn't advertise it, and the folks who use LP or MS are probably happy to support their favorite Disney fansite.

Interesting comments Kevy - but a few distinctions. Print industry is much different than park merchandise. For one thing, the park is the only sorce of the merchandise (yeah I know about Character Warehouse, but that's a different issue alltogether). Printing on the other hand is a commodity, where you as a broker have a distinct value added of knowing all the providers and who can do what for how much - if you're doing your job right, you're saving your clients money.

The ethics around publishing personal information is about privacy not commerce. Lot's of business try to take advantage of customer ignorance, I don't see a problem of educating them. Additionally, I would see no problem in posting personal information, especially if someone was alluding to being someone or somewhere that he or she wasn't.

But I also agree that LP or MS needed post stuff that could drive away sales. Caveat emptor sill reigns supreme. Likewise I don't think sites like MouseSavers are unethical either.

My only issue.

For the record, I've never talked about "ethics" in my discussions of MS or LP (check the thread) - I use words like 'creepy' and 'blah', because that's how it makes me feel.

Additionally, it would be interesting to see a comparison to another business model that buys retail and sells retail, which is what personal shoppers do. So far, the only one that's been mentioned here is eBay.

I must say, reading some of the responses in this thread are making me angrier and angrier.

Because I am neither an owner nor employee with MS, I can't speak officially for them, but I can tell you that the steps they take are in no way underhanded or unethical. They don't have "secret" contacts at the park. They don't have CMs do stuff that bends the rules. (And for the record, MouseShoppe was in existence long before LP's service started up.)

Any kind of mark-up charged by MouseShoppe barely covers the cost of their going into the park, purchasing the ordered merchandise then lugging it back to their shop and mailing it out. The owner/operator of MS has always been above-board and open and TPTB are well aware of her and have even been supportive!

Disney has known about these outside services for *years* and so far has not decided to provide a similar online service. So, MS has gone around and spent considerable time and money to photograph all the available merchandise, and set-up a sophisticated retail website for those who can't get to the park so they can browse DL merchandise. They've also stockpiled many of the most popular items themselves so they can give even give same day service. And this is creepy?

MousePod, it looks like this is pushing a button or two for you, but MS has in fact done a good job of providing a service that Disney will not. You may not know it, but Delivears ain't all that and a bag of chips. If you don't know exactly what article of merchandise you want, how are you supposed to know how to order it? Plus, they aren't the fastest in mailing out the merchandise once it's ordered. MS steps in and fills the void -- you need 50 mousears by tomorrow? No problem!

As far as I can see, DLR is not being ripped off by any third party services; they make plenty of profit, and services like MS make enough of a modest profit to continue in business.

Okay, I've ranted enough.... Sorry, everybody, but this just got to me bigtime.

Sheila -
I don't disagree with anything you say.

I don't think anyone is "ripping off" anyone.
I think that making cool stuff easy to get is nifty.

To reiterate my point one more time:
- a burned CD at DL (not including tax or AP discount) - $15.99
- the same CD at Mouseshoppe (not including shipping) - $20.00
- the same CD at Laughingplace.com (not including shipping) - $29.38

What does laughingplace offer that mouseplanet doesn't?

caveat emptor, indeed.

Interesting comparrison between the on-line service prices. Why such an up-charge at LP?

Just so you know, Sheila and Alex (if he responds) are MP people - they started it and run it. AVP is also part of the management group and is the owner of MouseShoppe and Charmingshoppe. I used to manage CharmingShoppe when it opened. So, there are a LOT of inside connections here which may lead to a lot of "opinions".

I do know this: MS runs out of the DLR with occasional trips to WDW and DLRP. LP runs out of WDW. I don't know if that accounts for the difference in upcharges or not. I do know that MS runs an above-board business and it is NOT the most profitable business in the world. It is, however, a livelyhood. So, threatening that in any way is going to cause some reactions.

Just some background F.Y.I.

Really?

Thank you for the personal attacks.
Initially, I stated what I was going to say, not how I was going to say it.
After you called my ethics into question, I rephrased my point and told you how I am going to share the information with my audience. If you followed the thread chronologically, you'd understand this.

For the record: I never called the ethics of any of these "resellers" into question. When I see a 100% markup on a CD, it makes me feel creepy. My feelings. If LP or MS would explain to their customers that they charge a seller's fee for their service, it would make me feel less creepy.

Arguments about a thin profit margin don't cut it for me. Sorry.

I don't understand why you seem to think that the right side of ethics is keeping DeliverEars or actual park prices secret.

They aren't personal attacks. They are attacks on the arguments.

I'll accept that.

I guess I felt under attack because the "ethics" argument was introduced by you in reference to my feelings ("creepy", "blah" etc).

I like a good argument as much as the next guy, and I'm even willing to see other peoples' points and change my position.

In another thread, I came to understand why MP doesn't want people to share MA information with people who didn't pay for it. I'm willing to listen.

I can appreciate that MP and LP don't think they're ripping people off. I'm still a little unclear as to why they deserve to make a profit off the ignorance of others, or why it's "unethical" to share information with other Disney fans, but that's just me.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Kevy.