2008 Election Results
 

Yup, I'm starting it....because there are already some results.

What a cool tradition, I didn't even know about that.

I heard Obama sent them a thank you already! :cool:

I predict the end of LoT as we know it once the elections are over. :)

CNN.com's homepage is all set up for Election Result shenanigans. I think I'll be watching that today and MSNBC.

[sings] It's the end of the world as we know it... and I feel fiiiiiiine. [/singing]

I got to the polling place at 7:20 this morning. There were ~30 people in line ahead of me. It took me 40 minutes to get through it. Not too horrible.

There was one lady looking very confused and frustrated by the voting machine. A couple different workers came over to help her out. She still seemed a bit flustered, but to the credit of the workers, she walked out seemingly with a smile.

Then I got to watch the drama as they tried to figure out if they had to fill out paperwork because they'd assisted her, or if they they didn't have to because it was only assistance with operation of the machine, not assistance in actually voting.

Reading that article made me, unexpectedly, a little choked up.

Comedy Central's description of Indecision '08:


:D

The last few years, I have shown up at my polling place to vote when it opens at 7:00am. At most, there were 5-10 people in front of me. Last year I was actually first in line.

This year, however, when I arrived at 7, there were a hundred people in line! It took about an hour to get through and cast my votes.

As much as I don't like waiting in line, I am exceedingly pleased to see that people are voting. Hopefully we'll break a turn-out record.

Really. We'll have to go back to talking about Disney, Bacon and all that crap.

There's always the Soooo.... Thread.

And boobies...

and girthy packages

Well yeah of course boobies. That goes without saying don't it?

If I had known, it might have had an impact on my decision:

Obama Supports Real Change: NCAA Playoff

That's right, Obama supports a true Playoff system for NCAA football. Get it down to eight teams and have a playoff.

One story on it.

Obama cares about college football?

Damnit, is it too late to change my vote?

It looks like you can add Ben & Jerry's to the list of "Free on Election Day"
 

Ben & Jerry's to offer free ice cream on Election Day

That's actually the entire story at this link.

Heh, just posted that in Yes We Can

Yeah, but mine was one minute sooner so :p

Hmm. Nearest store is 9.4 miles away. About a gallon of gas to get there and back. Not clear if the offer is good for kids or not. Probably is. I already had a muffin.

This might be the toughest decision I make today.

And it was with that that thousands upon thousands of voters cemented their vote for Obama...

I voted at about 9:30 AM today. No real line but all of the voting machines were in use.

Ford to give away free Ford Focus Coupes on Election Day

That's actually the entire story at this link.

And don't forget: You can get free coffee at Starbucks today.

I'd rather have the ice cream.

(And coffee!)

Will the free Ben&Jerry's Lines be longer than the voting lines?

Is anyone else noticing the tubes getting clogged? Page load times across the Internet seem to be creeping up today....

Something tells me that it's going to be a long and repetitive election day.

I know they aren't particularly reliable, but if anybody out there is breaking the exit poll embargoes, I wouldn't mind having them pointed out.

Drudge usually does if he can get at them.

The exit poll here in Maryland shows 100% for Obama, no votes on prop-8.

Of course my sample size is just 1 so there is some room for error but I expect it's as accurate as any other exit poll.

But at least there's free coffee at Starbucks.

Really? Do you need one of those "I Voted" stickers? cuz I gave mine away.

Really? I hear Krispy Kreme is giving away free doughnuts, too!

Mmm... I could use some doughnuts.. NOT!

Although the thought is delish!

I pity anyone not reading LoT all day today. They're going to have a gazillion posts to wade through tomorrow!

And many of them will be the same!

And many of them will be the same! :p

One of them will be Leo.

:evil: Heh

A couple of polling places are closing right now...

ETA: Polls in parts of Indiana, New Hampshire and Kentucky are closed.

anxiousanxiousanxious

Drudge currently has a one liner that says exit polls show Obama +15 in Pennsylvania. Another that says Fl, IN, and OH are too close to call and a third that has McCain holding AZ.

I voted. Yay! Didn't even have to wait too long... although I was in and out lickety split once I got my ballot. What's up with the people in there for 15-20 minutes? Are they just deciding then what to vote for?

Kentucky:

60% McCain
38% Obama

per CNN.com's map

NH:

O: 67%
M: 33%

What were the deciding states again?

FL
NV
OH

Those are both in line with polling, slightly tilted further in favor of the leader (realclearpolitics showed McCain at 54% in KY and Obama at 52% in NH).

OH, IN, PA, VA, FL among others

IN, FL, PA, VA, OH are probably the most pivotal in terms of ones that McCain needs to win.

fivethirtyeight.com points to NH and GA as early barometers for how things are going. He figures that if polls have been underestimating Obama's strength, it'll show up as a better showing in GA than predicted. If the polls have been overestimating, it'll show up as a weaker showing in NH. Those early returns from NH are a good sign for Obama by that reasoning.

Per MSNBC - Obama 56-43 in IN! (way early still, of course)

1% reporting in IN shows Obama 56 to McCain 43! I know that you can't judge by 1% but, still, that's pretty great. I guess my sixteen-year-old nephew's campaigning in his home state may have paid off!

IN:

O: 55
M: 44

And just like that, IN is at 50-49 on MSNBC.

I voted today for the first time! Not only was it exciting, but I also got to yell, "That sign is disgusting!" to the person at the polling place holding a "Yes on 102" sign (AZ's version of 8), and "Fvck you!" to the person holding the sign at the corner. Sure it didn't change anything, but I felt better.

At 2% reporting. Spoke to soon, dammit.

Whoa, KY just jumped down to 51-48 McCain, and IN is at 50-48 O. It's gonna be a wild one for a while at least.

KY is still 51-48 with 9% in.

Both NBC and CNN have called Kentucky for McCain and Vermont for Obama.

So they have.

Why Vermont? I don't see any percentage tallied. I do see a pretty strong New Hampshire, though.

I think CNN is tallying Vermont in New Hampshire's part of the database. Hmm.

It's going to be a long night and I don't think I'm going to have any nails left by the end of it.

1% and McCain is up in Virginia. Damn.

They're going off exit polls.
Florida too, though with 0% reporting. Ugh.

These widgets are pissing me off!

Exit polls in GA have Obama trailing slightly. And contrary to the numbers from returns, Obama is leading in VA exit polling by a pretty good margin (54% to something)

VA - 55-44 with 2% in and KY has the same with 14% in.

This is not good :(

KY is already called. And KY was expected to go to McCain, so that's not a big deal. VA is still way too early to call. Exit polling is showing a very different race than the early returns are. Those are probably from heavily red counties.

There's a LONG way to go.

They are breaking it down by county on CNN and all things considered, Obama may be doing better than it looks.

Something tells me that it's going to be a long and repetitive election day.

Same story in Ohio, Obama's got about 54% in exit polling.

Update: McCain goes up in IN in the returns with 14%, but exit polling still favors Obama.

Further Update: Obama up big (57-43) in Florida with 2%. No exit polling data

Update some more: Dead heat in NC, both by returns and by exit polling

Ugh. I hate this. I have a very bad feeling :(

But as we saw from Five Thirty Eight earlier, we should never, ever rely on exit polling. I'm still very, very uncomfortable.

True, but also recall that by all accounts, Obama needs just 2 of the key battleground states, and right now Florida's looking strong (16 point lead with 10% reporting) and while Indiana is close, he's way outperforming Kerry in the counties that have reported so far, which is a strong sign. That's 2 right there.

I think he has a pretty good shot against Kerry across the board.

SC called for McCain (expected)

Yes, but it's particularly key in Indiana where Kerry was very close to winning.

Elizabeth Dole - it looks like she's out of a job.
59% Hagan
38% Dole

We're going to go get dinner. We're going to the CPK at 2nd & PCH, if anyone wants to join us!

Can't, but if you change your mind there's always room for you at our place. :)

I can't eat.

CNN projecting Obama 77 electoral to 34 McCain!

Obama holds PA. Phew. Not that there was much doubt. The rest that have been called were firmly in Obama's column anyway. Same with OK for McCain.

Serves her right for that slimy "doesn't believe in god" stunt (not that "she doesn't believe in god" should be an insult to begin with).

Oh, and MSNBC's got it at 103-34

It looks like Ohio, NC and Florida are going to go to Obama.

I completely agree.

If true, then that leaves McCain hanging by a thread. He pretty much has to sweep through the rest of the battlegrounds to keep a hope of winning.

Okay, it's early but TEXAS is blue at this moment...

And Hell is Frozen. Both subject to change.

I know how you feel. I've completely lost my appetite.

Keep your heads on straight, my friends. These are just projected. I don't think we can be confident yet.

Did anyone else have trouble voting today? The other half of my household was told he wasn't listed on the rolls and got the dreaded pink ballot, even though he has his registration card and the lavote.net website lists him as holding a current registration. It really annoys me that there's no way to deal with this. To shut you up they give you a provisional ballot, which is probably round-filed before you even leave the building, and you're left with no other recourse. I'm pretty pissed off for him.

Anyone watching NBC or MSNBC? They look like they're in some sort of video game. Computer background with columns, windows, homing beacon things...
:D

I'll check the papers tomorrow to see the results.

We're watching NBC and others at the moment. I was on ABC because I like George S. It may not even matter what our coast has to say if it keeps up at this rate!

Which one promised to restore Mother's Cookies?

Dems pick up 4 seats in the Senate.

I found out some neighbors down the street held a 'prayer vigil' AGAINST Prop 8 - they've got a sign in the yard that says "Do Unto Others As You'd Have Them Do Unto You - Christians Against Hatred"

OMG!
Obama's going to win this.
I am so happy!
He just got Ohio and it looks like he's going to get Florida.

Obama just got New Mexico!!!!

I keep repeating - projections, projections, projections.

BUT - take the projections and add in CA, OR, WA, and HI, and Obama has won. JUST PROJECTIONS, SO NO CHAMPAGNE YET, KIDS.

I'll take projections, but I still remember Gore's loss pretty well.

Ken has guessed McCain will give his big LOSER speech in 2 more hours.

I predict sometime within the next hour. :snap:

Its hopeless.

SD's abortion ban was voted down.
CO's fertilization is the start of life amendment was also voted down.
Nice.

He'll wait until the West Coast closes. Then there won't be any point in waiting any longer.

[Varuka Salt] But, I want it NOW! [/Varuka Salt]

I honestly don't know why people are sweating the Presidential election. Counting the votes is just a formality a this point as Obama has this thing locked. He has 200 Electoral at this point and gets 55 more with Cali. I am sure he can easily find another 15.

CNN just called Texas for McCain. No surprise there.

I'm not sweating. After seeing those numbers, I started celebrating. :D

If anyone needs a little humorous interlude, Comedy Central is pretty funny right now.

I'm more concerned about 4 and 8 at this point.

THAT I'll give you

Every time I watch CNN I sing the Capitol Steps song "Wolfe Blitzer, Scud Stud" sung to the tune of Moon River.

I wish I was in Grant Park right about now.

Me too.

Who's Grant Park?

If Grant Park was a Who, I want him to be in me, not the other way around. ;)

Now at 220.

Buh-bye, McCain. Buh-bye.

But, damn, I'm gonna miss the comedy of Palin.

I'm almost having mixed feelings... ;)

CNN Called it. PROJECTED - OBAMA as PRESIDENT!

PRESIDENT OBAMA!

YES WE CAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How about now? ;)

Even Fox News just conceded and announced "President Obama".

WE just opened ours.

I am so, so, so very very happy.

CNN just called it for Obama, so no. I don't think it will be.

YAY! Now to wait on Prop 8 results...

Congratulations, President -Elect Obama.

NBC called President Obama!!

I am in tears.
:)

Exactly!

I've been anxiously awaiting the results on that one.

My mom voted yes on it but I accidentally confused my dad & he voted no on it.

Heheheh!

I've never felt this thrilled over anything political. :D

My mom just said to me (and I quote):

"Well, the one you voted for, won. America just died tonight."

She thinks Obama is the anti-christ. :rolleyes:

Enjoy it! I am

Now... Prop 8

I'm getting no sleep tonight.

Well, now to wait for the Zoo levy....

What?

McCain's concession speech is wonderful. He's a good guy.
I'm afraid that Palin will be the scapegoat for his loss.

8 is doing well. fvck fvck :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

You are right, it is a very gracious concession speech, but DAMN, the crowd is NOT happy! (Lots of booing every time Obama's name has come up, and as the speech ends, they sound like they are getting ready to riot. - yikes.).)

McCain just whispered in Palin's ear "It's your fault."

hehe

Congratulations President Obama !!! :snap:

Yet, it was the Red voters at the last election who condemned the Blue voters for the same "childish behavior". Um.... I seriously need to go dig up some of those posts from various sites from four years ago.

You've got to be kidding! (Here is Florida, we've got pretty much the same stupid thing as our Prop 2, and I'm sure it will pass.) I can't wait for this particular brand of bigotry to die.

What's next? Having separate drinking fountains labeled "Homo", so the Yes on 8 folks won't have to worry about catching the Gay? :rolleyes:

I'm not giving up hope, but I'm feeling quite sick right now.

McCain had an awesome concession speech. Props to McCain for that.

I can not wait for Obama's speech. I'm all tears now. I can't imagine what I'm going to be like during his speech!
:D

An old post of mine that came to mind:

http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/showthread.php?t=2151

an historic moment to be sure

Yes, We Did.

Thank you, America.

OBAMA! **** YES.

55% Yes, %45 No



:mad: :mad: :mad: :(


60,000 people at Grant Park.....

Prop 8...it's still early...don't give up hope!

It's no easier watching it happen in your home than it was watching it happen in mine.

:(

President Barack Obama... Damn! It makes me so happy to type that!

Same here, JW. It's been a long time since I've been this happy, and the first time ever that I've liked a candidate so well. I'm also really, really proud of our country- the people saw through the rhetoric and mudslinging and elected a most deserving man.

Has anyone any spare Effexor for Scaeagles?;)

OMG! It's REAL!

I'm so proud to be an American tonight, but I'm not so sure about California at the moment.

Ditto!!

Come on California!!!:confused:

I'm so fvcking proud right now!

If we can elect Obama as a president we can get gay marriage accepted in California - Yes We Can.

So what is Joe Biden going to do? He won two elections tonight.

Great speech!!! :cheers:




Just like Mickey, One on Main St and one in Toon Town....:D

Dems in da House!!!!!! :snap:

Yeah, except Obama opposes same sex marriage.

After that speech, I'm speechless.

OK, now I'm crying.

Me too!!:(

Poor guy is gonna need a big pooper-scooper to sweep up the mess from the last four years though.

But, yeah. Awesome speech. :)

Rare moment seeing history take place before our eyes. Amazing.

Ladies and Gentlemen... I'm happy to report that the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned back on.

Right now, Bill is dancing around the room singing "goodbye Sarah Palin!"

I wish I could agree.

I was speaking nationally. I'm not too concerned about 8. It will be challenged in court before it can be put in effect.

Holy ****, you should have heard Nader on Fox News just now! You gotta work pretty hard to piss of the Fox News guys when ragging on a Democrat! But Nader still managed to do it.

Predicting the end of Nader's career for those last comments.

I'm exhausted. Time to go to bed. Night all!

Personally he does, but he does not believe that the Government should have any say in the matter. Remember, he was a Constitutional Law professor for a number of years, and he does not believe that his personally held religious beliefs should be foisted upon the nation as a whole. It's going to be rather refreshing having someone this intelligent in office for a change.

For the record, McCain's speech was terrific. I was impressed at his grace in what had to have been a bitter blow. For this, my hat is off to him as well. I hope he makes good on it and his pledge to cross the aisle.

My dad's upset. He said, "Welcome to the USSA, kid!" and "Sadaam is now running our country!"

Aw.

I just grinned and replied, "Well, if you don't like it here, you're welcome to leave." ;)

That was what he said to me four years ago. He wasn't amused. :evil:

Just to put my own perspective in the mix...

http://blog.oregonlive.com/elections...1/zoobond.html

Thank you, Oregon! $125,000,000 will improve aging animals spaces, update the animal hospital and improve our water system - saving 11 million gallons of water a year!

I now return you to Prop 8...

I have not felt such elation since Quisp defeated Quake in a landside back in the early 70s.

Finally. A guy who can speak. In calm, reassuring tones, no less. And with a soaring, optimism...and proper sentence structure.

In the immortal words of Steve Allen, this could be the start of something big.
Congratulations, America. You're not as dumb as you look on paper.

Wow. It's Wedneday morning and it looks like Prop-8 is still too close to call.

Here we differ. I voted for Quake because he did the real work of the universe while Quisp just flew around hopped up on the hippie lettuce.

Here, however, I am guardedly optimistic. Guarded optimism may not sound like much, but it is a far cry from what I might have been, which was completely distraught.

Awesome! Congratulations ozron.

Except California

No, it's over (the Proposition, not the battle). Not technically, but effectively.

Oh. :(

My absolute elation at the election of my presidential candidate is sorely dampened by Prop 8.

Fvckers.

Cool! I love the shot from Obama, Japan and the writing on the window in the Netherlands.

Did you notice the ears on the Obama caricature? Far right side of the banner in the lower right corner of the picture.

My, what big ears you have Mr. President-Elect

Ditto this with 102. A$$hats. Give it time. Two steps forward, one step back.

I don't think your happiness should be dampened. You worked so hard for Obama and all that work helped him win last night. I think you should celebrate. The time for caution is over, he won. Yee haw!
:)

Prop 8 passed, but it will be challenged, it will be struck down and there will be marriage equality in the future. I believe that strongly. What really makes me happy was that in the end the Yes on 8 people did not take away what truly matters: they can't nullify a person's love for another. That's still there. They think they may own the truth, but they don't.

Bill wants to make a big sign for our front window that announces that the separation of church and state died on 11/4/08.

While I agree with your optimism for the future, I am truly embarrassed to be a part of the body of people who passed this proposition. It really makes me ill.

At least we haven't done what Arkansas did yesterday about adoptions. But I wouldn't be surprised to see us try.

I hear you. But take comfort in the fact that you are on the right side. Even though the rebels blew up the first Death Star they were still on the run and got their asses kicked on Hoth. The complete victory happened later. We will have our Ewok Moment!
:D

Hahaha, what's with all the Star Wars analogies today, G.C.?



Don't get me wrong, it's adorable. :)

OMG.

The race is too close to call, but with 99% of precincts reporting, convicted crook Ted Stevens is leading by ~3,400 votes. I know that most people voting for him are doing so simply to keep the Dem out of the office, but still!

Better the crook you know.....

Besides, if Stevens wins his race he stands a better chance of getting booted out on some type of esthetics charge during his term and peww peww Palin is in like flint...

I noticed in the flood of information yesterday, that the High Speed Rail initiative passed in California. So how long before I can cruse along the Cali coastline at 200+ mph?

Never as it is an inland route

Pooh. Can't you Californians do anything right?

If Stevens wins he will almost certainly resign. If he doesn't resign, the Democrats in Congress will almost certainly refuse to seat him (yes, they can do that) and the Republicans will be forced to go along.

Then when the seat is vacant, because of the last Alaska vacancy (when the governor appointed his daughter to the job), there will be a special election.

In which Sarah Palin will almost certainly choose to run.

And since she remains popular in Alaska and the state is solidly Republican. She will almost certainly be elected to the United States Senate sometime next month.

I really hate it when my sarcastic musings turn out to have a basis in reality.

I'm posting this here cause it's election related...

I have an awesome Poly Sci teacher. The assignments are horrible - 1500 word papers every 2 weeks, and the weeks between are 300 word papers. The word count isn't horrible, the type of papers they are, is. Let's just say I'd rather retake Stats then write these papers ;)

Anyways, I had asked for an extension on last weeks assignment because I was really behind due to the election and Prop 8 stuff I was doing. I asked if I could turn it in on Thursday (tomorrow). Last night I didn't get it even started and knew there was no way I was going to get it done. I basically begged for an extension and asked him to confirm that my caculation in my grade for not doing it was correct.

He wrote back with this

Did I mention he's a Colonel in the Army?

I just gotta crow for one second here.

Barack won Nevada by 12 percentage points. Double digits.

:)

So, you guys see this Al Franken stuff? I can't believe he's gotten so far, and can't believe the douche he's running against actually claimed victory with a few hundred vote lead. (I've seen different figures everywhere, from 270 votes to 700 votes.) With 3 million cast for these guys, gimme a break. Thankfully it triggers a recount automatically.

Nicely done! :D

So it was douche vs. douche in Minnesota?

Sponsored by Summer's Eve

Heh, yeah, pretty much.


The Onion's coverage

What should I do now???

Hee hee


What was this one? It is gone now

Apparently there's trouble at the Onion today, even the link on their front page isn't working. This link seems to be working.

Unfortunately, I can't watch at work (or more specifically, I can't LISTEN at work). But I WILL have to catch this later simply because the headline caught my attention:


That looks funny

It's moot, but NBC is calling North Carolina for Obama.

Oh, and currently the popular vote stands at 52.4% to 46.3%. fivethirtyeight.com's final projection was 52.3% to 46.2%. Pffft, he got it wrong.

Nebraska and Maine are the only two states that don't award their electoral votes in an all or nothing block.

Apparently it is looking like the slowly counted provisional and early mail ballots in Nebraska's Omaha district will be enough to tip that electoral vote to Obama. I blame name confusion, the locals thought they were checking where they lived.

So I know it's only one election and all, but damn if fivethirtyeight.com didn't nail it! Within fractions of a percent on the popular vote, and called every electoral vote right except for Indiana and the Omaha district in Nebraska. Dude knows his statistics!

The video.

LOL:

"The nation is preparing for the onslaught of obnxious kids with the first name 'Barak'"


eta: oops. That was CP's 2nd link.

An interesting commentary on CNN.com
 

Which shows that polls are indeed meaningful, if you know how to read them.

I was amazed as well. I admit fully to mousepod that, yes I should have had more than just a glimmer of hope when looking at the 538 stats before the 4th.
:)

He may have been right, but I must say that Nate Silver looks like a villain in his TV appearances. Evil genius glasses, high forehead, moist lips. Generally no hint of a smile and when he smiles pointy teeth.

He also tips his head forward when talking to the camera, resulting in looking out the top of his eye sockets.

Post-Election Political Cartoons
 

Which way should the Gay Rights sign be pointing in this cartoon?

There is no gay.

Yeah, Obama is against gay marriage so I don't think he'll be doing much to help us fags.

He personally does not believe in it, but he has said that he doesn't believe his personal beliefs should be implemented as law.

And (at risk of pumping him up too much) Lincoln wasn't against slavery.

Given the opportunity to do something within his power to promote equality, I believe Obama would make the right decision.

We'll soon find out.

Current prop results.

Spread on Prop 8 is 481,130 votes.

The State's continuously updated unprocessed ballot report.

Remaining ballots to be counted as of yesterday: 2,103,521.

Unprocessed ballot info.
So, we'll have to wait until December 9th for the real result. I would say something about how early ballots have leaned overwhelmingly Dem in this election (supposedly) but I don't want to get my hopes up.

As much as I wish for it, I would be EXTREMELY surprised if the vote on H8 got turned around.

I'd point out that 500,000 was the gap when they were reporting about 3 million votes still to be counted. You never know but I wouldn't put much hope into the result changing.

It seems like that spread has been consistent since Tuesday. Not much hope, but a little.

I would laugh, and laugh, and laugh.....

Now that I found those links I just know I'll be clicking them every day. :rolleyes:

I live in a county of effin bigots. WTF!

Heheh, one of my favorite signs at the Silverlake March:

"OMG CA WTF?"


:D

An interesting article on Minnesota Public Radio showing some of the disputed absentee ballots in the Al Franken/Norm Coleman senate race in that state.

It also lets you vote on how you think it should be counted. Most of them struck me as pretty obvious decisions but it must suck to make that decision with two campaigns yelling in opposite directions.

Thank you Georgia!

While I'm optimistic about Obama and his "Change" I would rather not have either party rummaging through my wallet totally unchecked.

A little balance is a good thing.

Even if they did elect an absolute ogre of a person.

That said, I don't think 58, 59, or 60 makes all that much difference except psychologically, since under most conditions you don't get absolute party unanimity. And not having exactly 60 might actually make things a bit easier for the Democratic whips. If they had 60 each Democratic senator would know that on any high profile party splitting bill they hold a lot of power to wring additional concessions for their district/state. This way they can say "well, we already need to get one Republican on board, and if we can do that we can get two and screw you."

I'm not sure I understand why but they aren't updating any more. Final results available December 13.

Oh, and Prop 8 has gained. :(

Oh, so this is why he reminds me of Shrek.

Without a fillibuster proof senate majority there is a very good chance that the Republican Party will stall any meaningfull legislation that will help clean up this mess. Do you really think they want to see Obama succeed?

You're proceeding from the perspective that government legislation is the way to fix this problem.

I'd rather see the market sort itself out.

Yes. I'd allow Ford, GM, Citi, AIG, etc.. to stand (or fail) on their own.

On the bail-outs I agree. However, legislation is needed to correct the policies of the Republican controlled Congress and the Republican President that got us in to this mess in the first place. The market sorting itself out? Ain't gonna happen. Capitalism is like fire. Useful when controlled, but devastating when let loose with no constraints.

I agree with Moonie, the automakers need to stand or fall on their own. They've been producing crap vehicles for decades and now their pigeons are coming home to roost. They can either innovate and make their vehicles desirable again, or they can step down and make room for an upstart to come in with new ideas. Though I wish they'd spin off certain brands, like Saturn, before they tank completely. Saturns, while not the greatest vehicles ever made, fill their market segment quite well, and make a decent vehicle for the price range. I think it could stand on its own if not overburdened with having to support the parent company.