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Alex · 07-13-2007, 08:22 PM

NA: That is a religious (spiritual if you wish) idea that I do not accept. And simply changing the word God to "power" does not make it any less religious than it did when Creationists moved on to Intelligent Design, which most here would reject as forcing religion into our science classes.

I do not accept that there is a force outside of myself controlling my life. And the fact that this "force" can be different things for different people just emphasizes the religious/spiritual nature of it. And every time a forced attendance case has made it into the federal appellate system the court has agreed.

The reason I think government agencies (as well as employers and insurance companies) find AA so attractive is not because it is so effective (AA has never officially released any numbers quantifying the success rates of their program and independent studies tend to find minimal improvement if any over controls) but because compared to other treatments it is, by far, much cheaper than the alternatives.

===

Kevy Baby, AA's own internal survey says that the 12-month effective rate for AA is 5% per year of participation. That is the same rate as among people who don't seek any treatment at all. So I hardly see how it could be said to be effective for the "works for a vast majority of the people." Among people who willingly seek treatment for alcoholism the success rate of AA is identical to pretty much every other moderated treatment method.

If 5% will be sober after a year no matter what, were the 5% who do so while attending AA give credit to being one of the lucky ones or to AA when actually that just happened to be where they were standing when it happened?

So, if you have empirical cites that AA works for the vast majority of people I'd be very interested in seeing them (note: I'm assuming "works" means that you're not drinking).

And being sentenced to AA is still a very common occurence. The fact that I consider it to require an unacceptable religious statement to attend (and NA says it is the only required thing you believe) that is unacceptable to me. No, if arrested for a DUI I would go to AA instead of jail for the same reason that if given the choice I would go sit in the mall food court for 30 days instead of going to jail. That is my justification for my anger. If it were entirely a self-chosen thing then I wouldn't really care about it at all in any way than I care about other forms of faith healing (defined as any treatment where failure is blamed on the willingness of the patient to be cured).

Nobody base jumps to find the one parachute that won't open but when it happens they are still responsible for having taken the risk. Yes, every person has the capacity to avoid becoming an addict. If you want to be certain of not becoming an alcoholic, then don't drink (or do whatever else you don't want to be addicted to). Of everything on that list above the only thing you can't abstain from is food.

I don't smoke because I don't want to become addicted to it and I consider it high risk. I'm pretty sure that so long as I keep making that decision I will never wake up to suddenly realize that I can't get through the day without a nicotine hit. That's the same reason I was willing to try LSD (low risk of addiction) but not heroin (high risk). Taking the risk is a choice, the outcome of taking the risk may not be. I do hold you responsible for making the initial choice even if I don't for the ultimate state you're in. I also hold you responsible for your behavior while addicted. Being a heroin addict may be explanation for why you robbed the convenience but it is not an excuse.

I'm willing to run the risk that 6-12 drinks a year will turn me into an alcoholic. If it does, my addiction will not be by choice but my exposure to the risk of becoming addicted will have been. And if I drive while drunk, I am responsible for that decision.

Personally, I don't find holding people responsible for the decisions they made to be a "stigma." It also doesn't mean that I don't want to help people deal with their situations and move themselves to a better place.

I have no problem with the idea that having a supportive social network will aid in finding the inner strength and desire to kick a habit (and still fail most of the time). I just don't buy that the specific 12-steps have anything to do with it which is why AA is generally found equivalent to other guided treatments.

===

Chernabog, of course they put strain on their families and the health care system. But that does not make it a public health issue except insofar as you accept that idea that any decision an individual makes that can conceivably result in a hospital bill gives the state an interest in prohibiting that decision.

And if so, then once again prohibiting alcohol should be everybody's single biggest public health issue. But while alcohol is legal I am of the opinion that heroin and vicodin should be legal.

Criminalize the bad behavior, not the decision. If you can do a half pound of coke a day and still be high functioning then, you're not a criminal and shouldn't be one just be the guy next to you will go out and rob convenience stores.

Prohibition of drugs and alcohol among minors is something I completely support for the very reason that they are not yet old enough to make informed decisions about their behavior. And if you were an alcoholic by 15 I have full sympathy for such people.

I still support, though, broadly available federally (and locally) subsidized dependency treatment for dependencies shown to cause serious immediate threats to the community and others. I just expect the treatments selected to bear up under the strain of proving effectiveness.

=====

I do find it interesting that alcoholism (and other addictions) seem to simultaneously be considered a physiological medical disease, but one best treated by apologizing to ex-girlfriends about bad behavior and talking it through in a group. What other medical disease is treated this way?

Why is smoking not generally treated using the 12-step method?

=====

Anyway, I didn't mean to cause a debate specifically about AA. iSm asked for thoughts on addiction so I shared mine.

I do not intend to minimize the difficulties and personal tragedies of addiction, though I wouldn't agree that my views on the nature of addiction do so.

07-13-2007, 08:22 PM	#2
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	NA: That is a religious (spiritual if you wish) idea that I do not accept. And simply changing the word God to "power" does not make it any less religious than it did when Creationists moved on to Intelligent Design, which most here would reject as forcing religion into our science classes. I do not accept that there is a force outside of myself controlling my life. And the fact that this "force" can be different things for different people just emphasizes the religious/spiritual nature of it. And every time a forced attendance case has made it into the federal appellate system the court has agreed. The reason I think government agencies (as well as employers and insurance companies) find AA so attractive is not because it is so effective (AA has never officially released any numbers quantifying the success rates of their program and independent studies tend to find minimal improvement if any over controls) but because compared to other treatments it is, by far, much *cheaper* than the alternatives. === Kevy Baby, AA's own internal survey says that the 12-month effective rate for AA is 5% per year of participation. That is the same rate as among people who don't seek any treatment at all. So I hardly see how it could be said to be effective for the "works for a vast majority of the people." Among people who willingly seek treatment for alcoholism the success rate of AA is identical to pretty much every other moderated treatment method. If 5% will be sober after a year no matter what, were the 5% who do so while attending AA give credit to being one of the lucky ones or to AA when actually that just happened to be where they were standing when it happened? So, if you have empirical cites that AA works for the vast majority of people I'd be very interested in seeing them (note: I'm assuming "works" means that you're not drinking). And being sentenced to AA is still a very common occurence. The fact that I consider it to require an unacceptable religious statement to attend (and NA says it is the only required thing you believe) that is unacceptable to me. No, if arrested for a DUI I would go to AA instead of jail for the same reason that if given the choice I would go sit in the mall food court for 30 days instead of going to jail. That is my justification for my anger. If it were entirely a self-chosen thing then I wouldn't really care about it at all in any way than I care about other forms of faith healing (defined as any treatment where failure is blamed on the willingness of the patient to be cured). Nobody base jumps to find the one parachute that won't open but when it happens they are still responsible for having taken the risk. Yes, every person has the capacity to avoid becoming an addict. If you want to be certain of not becoming an alcoholic, then don't drink (or do whatever else you don't want to be addicted to). Of everything on that list above the only thing you can't abstain from is food. I don't smoke because I don't want to become addicted to it and I consider it high risk. I'm pretty sure that so long as I keep making that decision I will never wake up to suddenly realize that I can't get through the day without a nicotine hit. That's the same reason I was willing to try LSD (low risk of addiction) but not heroin (high risk). Taking the risk is a choice, the outcome of taking the risk may not be. I do hold you responsible for making the initial choice even if I don't for the ultimate state you're in. I also hold you responsible for your behavior while addicted. Being a heroin addict may be explanation for why you robbed the convenience but it is not an excuse. I'm willing to run the risk that 6-12 drinks a year will turn me into an alcoholic. If it does, my addiction will not be by choice but my exposure to the risk of becoming addicted will have been. And if I drive while drunk, I am responsible for that decision. Personally, I don't find holding people responsible for the decisions they made to be a "stigma." It also doesn't mean that I don't want to help people deal with their situations and move themselves to a better place. I have no problem with the idea that having a supportive social network will aid in finding the inner strength and desire to kick a habit (and still fail most of the time). I just don't buy that the specific 12-steps have anything to do with it which is why AA is generally found equivalent to other guided treatments. === Chernabog, of course they put strain on their families and the health care system. But that does not make it a public health issue except insofar as you accept that idea that any decision an individual makes that can conceivably result in a hospital bill gives the state an interest in prohibiting that decision. And if so, then once again prohibiting alcohol should be everybody's single biggest public health issue. But while alcohol is legal I am of the opinion that heroin and vicodin should be legal. Criminalize the bad behavior, not the decision. If you can do a half pound of coke a day and still be high functioning then, you're not a criminal and shouldn't be one just be the guy next to you will go out and rob convenience stores. Prohibition of drugs and alcohol among minors is something I completely support for the very reason that they are not yet old enough to make informed decisions about their behavior. And if you were an alcoholic by 15 I have full sympathy for such people. I still support, though, broadly available federally (and locally) subsidized dependency treatment for dependencies shown to cause serious immediate threats to the community and others. I just expect the treatments selected to bear up under the strain of proving effectiveness. ===== I do find it interesting that alcoholism (and other addictions) seem to simultaneously be considered a physiological medical disease, but one best treated by apologizing to ex-girlfriends about bad behavior and talking it through in a group. What other medical disease is treated this way? Why is smoking not generally treated using the 12-step method? ===== Anyway, I didn't mean to cause a debate specifically about AA. iSm asked for thoughts on addiction so I shared mine. I do not intend to minimize the difficulties and personal tragedies of addiction, though I wouldn't agree that my views on the nature of addiction do so.
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