[Alex]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

I believe John Locke and others justified their belief in a creator on the theory that as a matter of logic, there had to be an uncaused cause.

Even if accepted though (and this was Hume's response) it says nothing about the nature of that first cause and it would just be a baseless assumption that there must have been intent behind it and it would be baseless assumption on top of baseless assumption that the entity with that intent was still controlling every aspect of its creation.

Not to mention that a logical structure that requires a First Cause itself suffers from asking what caused the First Cause. Where did God come from is no less valid that asking where did the Big Bang come from.

Also, the argument flows from the limited nature of physics at the time in which every motion appeared to have a direct cause. They didn't have the benefit of quantum mechanics.

Originally Posted by Morrigoon

But I see no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

If that works for you, then that's great. But when I look at the same thing I'm not entirely sure I see any bathwater and definitely don't see any baby.

But your beliefs are no less "magical" than my own.

Well, except my "beliefs" come with an explanation that makes predictions that can be tested in the laboratory or through direct observation of the physical record and could be overturned or significantly altered by what is found.

Presumably your faith in the existence of god and Jesus's relationship to that god exists despite whatever evidence is produced.

Originally Posted by Moonliner

Observation: I can't see anything, Conclusion: Dinosaurs!

Very true. "Science" ****s up all the time. Goes down blind alleys. Leaps to unsupported conclusions. Pillories those who are right. Sometimes engages in fraud. It can produce famines that kill millions and environmental disasters that wipe out species. It suffers all the flaws of the humans who practice it. "Science" is not a hegemony of ironclad principles into which all participants must completely subscribe.

The key difference though is that when the improved telescope comes out and provides a clearer picture of Venus the scientists say "huh, we were wrong about the dinosaurs." The faithful say "Obviously the dinosaurs live underground and breath through the hollow roots of plants on the surface."

And when we put a probe on the surface which shows it is hundreds of degrees and the atmosphere is highly acidic science chuckles and says "wow, can you believe how wrong we were?" and the faithful say "oh my, that's amazing that dinosaurs could live in such an environment."