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Alex · 01-19-2011, 09:57 PM

Not really, it is mostly a self-reached conclusion (which I had no choice but to reach).

I've seen no evidence for a non-deterministic universe. Free will is non-deterministic (in that if you chase it far enough, at some point it requires a result without a cause), therefore, I see no reason to believe in free will. But I'm sure any reasonably well educated student of philosophy would be able to argue circles around me (not that this would make them right, necessarily, just me improperly equipped to handle the debate).

It isn't a well researched position, though I have read plenty of people talking about it, but it is like religion to me in that it can be interesting to discuss the nature of god but until there's something that solidly requires god exists, it's just a game.

But it isn't that vital a point as obviously even if I'm right our chemistry results in us believing we have free will and so it is essentially a non-negatable hypothesis.

The closest we can come in answering the question in a lab instead of a metaphysics seminar, so far, is showing that aspects of behavior that we interpret as free will aren't necessarily evidence of such (such as Benjamin Libet's famous experiments or psychopharmacology which is heavily based on the idea of subconscious brain chemistry altering behavior).

And as a reminder, because I don't believe in free will doesn't mean that I necessarily believe in predestination. I accept that there are elements of randomness at the quantum level that do bubble up to the macro level in various ways that renders the outcomes of current state unpredictable. So the result can't be changed but it also can't be known.

Also, just because I don't really believe there is free will (no matter how strongly I perceive it) doesn't mean I believe we should (even if we could) throw up our hands and accept social anarchy on the grounds that nobody can be held morally responsible for their actions. If you can say you had no choice but to rape that girl I can in response say I have no choice but to support putting you in jail.

01-19-2011, 09:57 PM	#10
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	Not really, it is mostly a self-reached conclusion (which I had no choice but to reach). I've seen no evidence for a non-deterministic universe. Free will is non-deterministic (in that if you chase it far enough, at some point it requires a result without a cause), therefore, I see no reason to believe in free will. But I'm sure any reasonably well educated student of philosophy would be able to argue circles around me (not that this would make them right, necessarily, just me improperly equipped to handle the debate). It isn't a well researched position, though I have read plenty of people talking about it, but it is like religion to me in that it can be interesting to discuss the nature of god but until there's something that solidly requires god exists, it's just a game. But it isn't that vital a point as obviously even if I'm right our chemistry results in us believing we have free will and so it is essentially a non-negatable hypothesis. The closest we can come in answering the question in a lab instead of a metaphysics seminar, so far, is showing that aspects of behavior that we interpret as free will aren't necessarily evidence of such (such as Benjamin Libet's famous experiments or psychopharmacology which is heavily based on the idea of subconscious brain chemistry altering behavior). And as a reminder, because I don't believe in free will doesn't mean that I necessarily believe in predestination. I accept that there are elements of randomness at the quantum level that do bubble up to the macro level in various ways that renders the outcomes of current state unpredictable. So the result can't be changed but it also can't be known. Also, just because I don't really believe there is free will (no matter how strongly I perceive it) doesn't mean I believe we should (even if we could) throw up our hands and accept social anarchy on the grounds that nobody can be held morally responsible for their actions. If you can say you had no choice but to rape that girl I can in response say I have no choice but to support putting you in jail.
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