[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

While it is not my goal to expand this too deep theologically, it is Christian teaching that man is born with a sinful nature. Again, theologically speaking, man was created in the image of God, but then chose sin (whole garden of Eden/fall of man thing).

When I say good, I don't mean without sin. By that definition Jesus was the only good man ever. I mean kind, loving, giving, etc. So often people turn out wonderfully in spite of having horrible parents, reinforcing my belief that the goodness in man is hard to squelch.

One of my jobs as a parent is to shape the character of my kids. This does not mean to attempt to alter their personalities and what makes them great individuals. Part of this is presenting my children with responsiblity and choices. Some choices have consequences, and they are are aware of the consequences prior to making a choice. I will rarely force my child to do anything (meaning, for example, I don't allow my 12 year old the option of staying home from school on a whim - I'll put her in the car in her pajamas if that's what it takes, in effect forcing her to go to school), but I will shape their understanding that certain choices have consequences associated with them.

Scaeagles, you've always seemed like a very loving parent. When I talk about some Christian parents bugging me, I'm not necessarily referring to yourself.

I agree that teaching is the most important part of being a parent. I prefer natural consequences to logical, but that doesn't mean that there isn't teaching involved. There are a very few things I would force, and I'm not saying that force is 100% a bad thing, but I'm sure that while you and I might force kids to go to school, we would also find out why our kids so adamantly didn't want to go to school and help them solve the problem.[/quote]

Whether the self serving behavior is learned or is instinctual doesn't really matter to me. The fact is that most two year olds have no concept of how their actions impact those around them. Does that behavior make them bad? No. It makes them human. And I am responsible to teach my children to behave otherwise.

Yes, I agree, teaching must start from a very young age. The attitude I'm referring to that bugs me is one that equates teaching with punishment. Or more pointedly those that feel that the most appropriate way to "teach" a child, however small, to behave is to hit them or otherwise make them suffer. Which, I guess, if your goal is obedience then that's probably effective. If your goal is to have a well grounded moral compass those methods are useless, as the nature of punishment is to teach self-centeredness.

Again, not referring to you, just a lot of Christian parents I've met. It's possible that this isn't a Christian thing, but an American thing. I have a friend in Egypt that is Christian, but he tells me that punishment isn't really used there.

Well, if God didn't create bad people than who did? If you believe in God and he created everyone then isn't it logical that he created good and evil?

I think some people are just inherently bad, but that's just me thinking aloud a little too late at night.

I don't think people are born bad. I think that some choose to do bad things with their lives, but I don't know of anyone on earth that is 100% bad. If people were born bad, wouldn't that absolve them of responsibility? Personally, I've never met a child that wasn't good.

Also, I agree we are responsible for shaping our children and trying to get them to see right from wrong. Teaching them that there are consequences for their actions is one of the best lessons we can give them.

Yes learning how our actions affect ourselves and others is one of the most important things. However, I don't equate teaching about consequences to imposing consequences. Many actions have consequences all their own, and those can definitely be learned from. Most of the circle of parents that I hang out with don't punish, impose, consequences, or use force. Their kids are pretty phenomenal, so I'll probably continue on that path. My kids are little though, so what do I know.