Somali Pirates

scaeagles · 04-10-2009, 06:39 AM

OK, perhaps I'm oversimplifying this whole thing with the current hostage situation. For those who may not know, Somali pirates took over a US Flagged cargo ship. The crew took the ship back, but the captain is currently being held hostage, floating in the Indian Ocean in a life boat with several of the Pirates.

Now, there is at least one US Naval vessel nearby.

So here's what you do - put a seal team in the water with one seal per pirate, having them submerge on the far side of the naval vessel so that the pirates are unaware. They surround the life raft, surface, each seal kills the pirate they've been assigned to, and it's over.

Am I oversimplifying this? It doesn't seem too hard.

innerSpaceman · 04-10-2009, 07:06 AM

Yeah, scaeagles, if I were king of the world, you'd be in charge of all hostage retrievals and negotiations. I wonder why no one has yet figured out it's as easy as you say? Sheesh, what a bunch of morons in this field. You win.

Alex · 04-10-2009, 07:12 AM

Because life is not a movie?

Is also isn't an episode of Kings where a hostage situation was similarly ended when a group of sharpshooters simultaneously shot all of the hostage-takers in the head and shooting through metal walls.

I'm sure forceful contingencies are being considered and at some point might be used but all of them carry increased risk of death or injury for the hostage. So, so long as continuing to talk does not do so, why not continue to talk?

And it may not be so easy as you think for a eight Navy seals to simultaneously surface, aim, and with 100% accuracy kill their assigned hostage all in less time than it takes for a hostage taker to shoot the hostage.

For a sense of how hard it is, I suggest taking your gun down to the local swimming pool, go down to the bottom of it and then surface, aim, an shoot some target within 1 second of surfacing. Once you get that skill mastered do it with a friend where you both have to shoot within the same one second. Then up the ante by doing it in sea swells and where whatever you're shooting at gets to duck if it sees you several feet before you surface (which very well might unless you are farther away in which case the shot gets exponentially harder).

So yes, I think you're oversimplifying.

scaeagles · 04-10-2009, 07:32 AM

I don't think I said the task itself was easy. I think I said the concept was easy. I don't think I could do it because I'm not a navy seal. These guys train for years to do such things, I suppose, and I would suspect their training involves such things.

With what these Somali pirates have been doing over the last few years, I think it's about time talking with them stops. So yeah, I think continuing to negotiate is problematic, to a point. Even if my suggestion is not practical or or even possible (and I still put a whole lot of faith in the seals and their training that they could do it), there is probably something similar they could do.

Kevy Baby · 04-10-2009, 07:40 AM

Are you aware that the lifeboat is fully enclosed, similar to this one:

The likelihood of getting in without risking the life of the captain is pretty slim.

scaeagles · 04-10-2009, 07:45 AM

Well, that certainly changes things. I guess I thought it was open because the captain managed to get into the ocean and attempt to swim away. I figured he just jumped over the side when he had the opportunity.

Moonliner · 04-10-2009, 07:50 AM

I hope for the sake of future US flagged ships this does not end well for the hijackers.

Perhaps the US could take a queue from those master diplomats the Russian special forces: Alfa.

Quote:

In October 1985, Alfa was dispatched to Beirut, Lebanon, when four Soviet diplomats had been taken hostage by militant Sunni Muslims. By the time Alfa was onsite, one of the hostages had already been killed. The perpetrators and their relatives were identified by supporting KGB operatives, and they latter were taken hostage. Following the standard policy of 'no negotiation', Alfa proceeded to sever some of their hostages' body parts and sent them to the perpetrators with a warning that more would follow if the Russian hostages were not released immediately. The tactic was a success and no other Russian national was taken hostage in the Middle East for the next 20 years

They got style.

Moonliner · 04-10-2009, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

Are you aware that the lifeboat is fully enclosed, similar to this one:

The likelihood of getting in without risking the life of the captain is pretty slim.

Meh, Toss a couple of flash-bangs through the windows. Problem solved.

Alex · 04-10-2009, 07:54 AM

I do think you overestimate what they can do. But even if they could pull it off 95% of the time without harm coming to the hostage, why risk that unless it is clear that harm is going to come to him anyway.

There are plenty of examples of elite military forces using such tactics to end hostage situations like this and a lot of them ended up with dead hostages.

See, for example, Entebbe in which a hijacked plane was stormed resulting in the deaths of all 8 hostage takers. And five of the passengers. And four of the storming soldiers.

Or the Moscow Theater hostage situation. When storming the building successfully killed 39 rebels. And at least 130 hostages. They tried to get fancy and use a knock-out gas.

Or the Iranian Embassy Seige in London. When the SAS stormed the building they killed five of the six hostage takers and saved 19 others. But one hostage was killed before the SAS could get to him.

And of course there is the German attempt at freeing hostages through use of coordinated sniper fire during the 1972 Munich Olympics. The initial attempt killed 2 hostage takers and one German policemen. And put the remaining hostag-takers in a position with no possible exit while still holding hostages. And so they then killed the remaining 9 hostages.

Or the Ma'alot Massacre in Israel where a school was taken by a Palestinian group. The attempt to storm the building by Israel's elite special forces did not go well and before they could be subdued the hostage takers opened fire on the confined students killing 22 of them.

Yes, these are all different from the current situation. But I think argue the point that such operations are not so easy or so clean as TV and movies lead us to believe.

Moonliner · 04-10-2009, 08:00 AM

Talk, raid, whatever. I just don't want a deal that allows these guys to sail away let alone get paid cash.

Perhpas a deal where you air drop them a couple of million and then follow them with a Preditor until they reach their mother ship, or home village for that matter and then let loose the hellfire's

04-10-2009, 06:39 AM	#1
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	Somali Pirates OK, perhaps I'm oversimplifying this whole thing with the current hostage situation. For those who may not know, Somali pirates took over a US Flagged cargo ship. The crew took the ship back, but the captain is currently being held hostage, floating in the Indian Ocean in a life boat with several of the Pirates. Now, there is at least one US Naval vessel nearby. So here's what you do - put a seal team in the water with one seal per pirate, having them submerge on the far side of the naval vessel so that the pirates are unaware. They surround the life raft, surface, each seal kills the pirate they've been assigned to, and it's over. Am I oversimplifying this? It doesn't seem too hard.
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04-10-2009, 07:06 AM	#2
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	Yeah, scaeagles, if I were king of the world, you'd be in charge of all hostage retrievals and negotiations. I wonder why no one has yet figured out it's as easy as you say? Sheesh, what a bunch of morons in this field. You win.
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04-10-2009, 07:12 AM	#3
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	Because life is not a movie? Is also isn't an episode of Kings where a hostage situation was similarly ended when a group of sharpshooters simultaneously shot all of the hostage-takers in the head and shooting through metal walls. I'm sure forceful contingencies are being considered and at some point might be used but all of them carry increased risk of death or injury for the hostage. So, so long as continuing to talk does not do so, why not continue to talk? And it may not be so easy as you think for a eight Navy seals to simultaneously surface, aim, and with 100% accuracy kill their assigned hostage all in less time than it takes for a hostage taker to shoot the hostage. For a sense of how hard it is, I suggest taking your gun down to the local swimming pool, go down to the bottom of it and then surface, aim, an shoot some target within 1 second of surfacing. Once you get that skill mastered do it with a friend where you both have to shoot within the same one second. Then up the ante by doing it in sea swells and where whatever you're shooting at gets to duck if it sees you several feet before you surface (which very well might unless you are farther away in which case the shot gets exponentially harder). So yes, I think you're oversimplifying.
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04-10-2009, 07:32 AM	#4
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	I don't think I said the task itself was easy. I think I said the concept was easy. I don't think I could do it because I'm not a navy seal. These guys train for years to do such things, I suppose, and I would suspect their training involves such things. With what these Somali pirates have been doing over the last few years, I think it's about time talking with them stops. So yeah, I think continuing to negotiate is problematic, to a point. Even if my suggestion is not practical or or even possible (and I still put a whole lot of faith in the seals and their training that they could do it), there is probably something similar they could do.
	Submit to Quotes

04-10-2009, 07:40 AM	#5
Kevy Baby Chowder Head Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Yes Posts: 18,500	Are you aware that the lifeboat is fully enclosed, similar to this one: The likelihood of getting in without risking the life of the captain is pretty slim. __________________ The thing about quotes on the internet is that you cannot verify their validity. - Abraham Lincoln
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04-10-2009, 07:45 AM	#6
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	Well, that certainly changes things. I guess I thought it was open because the captain managed to get into the ocean and attempt to swim away. I figured he just jumped over the side when he had the opportunity.
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04-10-2009, 07:54 AM	#9
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	I do think you overestimate what they can do. But even if they could pull it off 95% of the time without harm coming to the hostage, why risk that unless it is clear that harm is going to come to him anyway. There are plenty of examples of elite military forces using such tactics to end hostage situations like this and a lot of them ended up with dead hostages. See, for example, Entebbe in which a hijacked plane was stormed resulting in the deaths of all 8 hostage takers. And five of the passengers. And four of the storming soldiers. Or the Moscow Theater hostage situation. When storming the building successfully killed 39 rebels. And at least 130 hostages. They tried to get fancy and use a knock-out gas. Or the Iranian Embassy Seige in London. When the SAS stormed the building they killed five of the six hostage takers and saved 19 others. But one hostage was killed before the SAS could get to him. And of course there is the German attempt at freeing hostages through use of coordinated sniper fire during the 1972 Munich Olympics. The initial attempt killed 2 hostage takers and one German policemen. And put the remaining hostag-takers in a position with no possible exit while still holding hostages. And so they then killed the remaining 9 hostages. Or the Ma'alot Massacre in Israel where a school was taken by a Palestinian group. The attempt to storm the building by Israel's elite special forces did not go well and before they could be subdued the hostage takers opened fire on the confined students killing 22 of them. Yes, these are all different from the current situation. But I think argue the point that such operations are not so easy or so clean as TV and movies lead us to believe.
	Submit to Quotes

04-10-2009, 08:00 AM	#10
Moonliner 8/30/14 - Disneyland -10k or Bust. Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 9,022	Talk, raid, whatever. I just don't want a deal that allows these guys to sail away let alone get paid cash. Perhpas a deal where you air drop them a couple of million and then follow them with a Preditor until they reach their mother ship, or home village for that matter and then let loose the hellfire's __________________ - Taking it one step at a time.
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