did John Kerry just call soldiers stupid?

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Nephythys

I don't get it MBC- who are you to call any outrage "feigned"?

You seem willing to give Kerry a pass- and trust to his intent and not his words- which even he say were "botched" but you throw out the reaction as being feigned (and it is not simply on the right)-

Well, here's the thing . I'm not choosing intent over words. I heard the same words that you did and, for the life of me, have no idea how one can surmise that he was saying that the troops are stupid. I just don't see it. His words, in context, suggest to me that this was a slam on Bush, not on the soldiers. And, as of yet, I have not heard one person explain how he could have possibly been talking about the soldiers. Y'all have been asked numerous times to explain this from numerous posters but I have yet to see a response.

What I have heard is republicans shouting from the mountaintops in unison that Kerry thinks that the troops are stupid. Until they can logically explain how his words could possibly mean what the right says they do, I'm going with feigned outrage, especially considering the circumstances. It is a tactic well known to both sides of the political spectrum, as you well know. And yes, I understand that some democrats are "outraged" as well. I simply don't understand where they are coming from either.

I think a lot of people are reading a hell of a lot into his words that just isn't there. You have every right to your own interpretation but I just don't agree with it. If that is "giving Kerry a pass", then so be it.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

To paraphrase, I don't believe that the members of the military are 1) dumber than the average citizen or 2) only in the military because they couldn't find a different job or 3) that they are less educated so that the military was their only option.

Good, then I agree. And fortunately, my list of what I was saying is short (though has been repeated many times thus far)

1) People who do not succeed in the education system have little choice other than the military.

[innerSpaceman]

If this is the line all the hubbub is about ...

Originally Posted by John Kerry

You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq.

... then, taken completely out of context, I have to honestly say I find the sentence to imply that people who don't do well in school join the military ... and yes, I find a correllary implication that most people in the military didn't do well in school.

Further, I think the logic exercise of finding the concept "all stupid people become soldiers" not equal to "all soldiers are stupid people" to be inapplicable to this situation. The vast majority of soldiers are people of a certain age ... school age, to be precise. Even assuming that a great many smart people, or rather those who do well in school, join the military ... I find it ludicrous to assume that such people are not in the extreme minority.


I am mindful, btw, that John Kerry served in the armed forces of the United States, and knows a bit more about the composition of those armed forces than do I .... or I daresay, most of the critics lambasting his remarks.


But unless the lead-in to that controversial sentence lays the blame for not doing well in school squarely at Bush's No-Child-Left-Behind program, I honestly don't see how Kerry was talking about Bush and not about soldiers.


And frankly, if Kerry does lay all blame for doing poorly in school on the NCLB program, I find that an absurd position. Much as I regard the program a dismal failure, I believe innate intelligence still to be the determining factor in how well one does in school ... no matter what weight is given to standardized tests.



I think Kerry said soldiers are dumb. But so what?

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

I am mindful, btw, that John Kerry served in the armed forces of the United States, and knows a bit more about the composition of those armed forces than do I .... or I daresay, most of the critics lambasting his remarks.

I have heard a number of servicemen in the last couple of days state that many of people they served with were people who chose the military because they truly felt that they had no other options in life. It would seem that that this isn't a big secret among soldiers. And yet, there are some that still think that every soldier signs up because of a compelling patriotic duty. It just isn't so and these people need to face reality.

I lived with one of these people about 6 years ago. He couldn't hold a job, did not have the skills necessary to be successful in college, and saw the military as his only hope. He signed up about 3 months before the 2000 election and was absolutely certain that he would never going to see combat. He had been promised that if he joined, numerous opportunities would become available to him.

I often wonder about him and how he is doing. One thing I know for sure, he did not sign up out of any sense of patriotic duty. He signed up because his life was falling apart and he was desperate. Anyone who thinks that he is in the minority is, I feel, sorely mistaken.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

I think Kerry said soldiers are dumb. But so what?

With all due respect, I find this idea to be ludicrous. You are asking me to believe that, in the middle of a speech that was an all out bush bash, he suddenly decided to switch gears and call the troops stupid, one week before perhaps one of th most important elections in our lifetime.

I can easily buy that Kerry screwed up the wording of a Bush joke. I cannot buy that someone that was a soldier would basically attack himself and his fellow servicemen, knowing the political backlash that would follow. Would someone who went through the swiftboat experience like he did, and who has presidential aspirations actually think it would go over well to insult the troops. It makes no sense, especially given the context of the rest of the speech. I'm just not buying it.

[Jughead P. Jones]

I think quite a few people are forgetting that there are several levels of intelligence. Sure, the soldiers might not have book smarts, but their levels of street smarts might be quite high...higher than that of even a Harvard grad.

Something to chew on, at least.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

I can easily buy that Kerry screwed up the wording of a Bush joke.

I think it was a Freudian. Like I said earlier, I don't think he meant to say that soldiers are stupid, and I don't think it was his intent, but I think he believes it.

Kerry is someone who prides himself on debating skills and his ability to use the spoken word. How many times have we heard him misspeak while pubically addressing a crowd? Could be that he does all the time and we don't hear about it, but he prides himself on his speaking ability.

I had friends that went the military route not because they were stupid, but because they wanted training and college money. I see noproblem with that whatsoever. Before I got a scholarship I considered the same thing.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

How many times have we heard [Kerry] misspeak while pubically addressing a crowd?

Oh. Oh, oh. Glass houses, Bush fan. It kills me that we're having such a blown-out debate about someone who lost an election two years ago, when the president himself says things like "You know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." That wasn't a few year ago, y'all, that was Sept. 6, 2006. Where is our outraged debate about that?

Nowhere did Kerry say that soliders were stupid. He said "if you don't do your homework, your choices will be limited to the military." YOU are implying that all military = didn't do their homework. Not him.

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

I believe it is a test of your moderating abilities

Actually it's because I started the topic in the Random thread before Tramspotter started the new thread- that's why.

I suspect there are time stamps that show that-yup, by almost 90 minutes.

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

With all due respect, I find this idea to be ludicrous. You are asking me to believe that, in the middle of a speech that was an all out bush bash, he suddenly decided to switch gears and call the troops stupid, one week before perhaps one of th most important elections in our lifetime.

I can easily buy that Kerry screwed up the wording of a Bush joke. I cannot buy that someone that was a soldier would basically attack himself and his fellow servicemen, knowing the political backlash that would follow. Would someone who went through the swiftboat experience like he did, and who has presidential aspirations actually think it would go over well to insult the troops. It makes no sense, especially given the context of the rest of the speech. I'm just not buying it.

How can you not buy that when he maligned the troops before- accusing them of war atrocities that he never actually saw, and may not have even happened?

Just earlier this year, or late last- he accused them of terrorizing people in Iraq.

Kerry has a history of slamming the military- I agree with Leo- he may have flubbed the joke- but I suspect a freudian slip.