Politically charged Quote of the Day (and ... The Meaning of Life)

[SzczerbiakManiac]

I am an atheist. I freely admit that there could be any number of deities, but until I see legitimate evidence supporting their existence, I will remain an atheist.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by SzczerbiakManiac

I am an atheist. I freely admit that there could be any number of deities, but until I see legitimate evidence supporting their existence, I will remain an atheist.

A self fulfilling prophecy if you will.

"I refuse to believe in something that requires faith until I see irrefutable facts."

The whole basis for faith is allowing yourself to know that the spirit is there without needing to have the hard and fast evidence. It is a freeing experience to allow yourself to be all the evidence you need.

[Alex]

Or self-deluding. It exists because I believe it does is also a self-fulfilling prophecy for all the evidence you require.

I believe all kinds of things that require "faith." For example, I believe that Lani would never leave me when every personal experience would tell me otherwise.

I just don't label as true anything that doesn't have evidence.

So let me ask you, Kevy, how you decide which things that require faith are believable? As the old saying goes, don't be so open minded that your brain falls out.

[Alex]

I don't mean that to imply I think you've let your brain fall out. I have no interest in trying to talk anybody out of their faith (until they start making real world testable claims as evidence of it). I don't understand why anybody believes such things but I'm not too hepped up about it.

I'm just curious how you draw a line between believing Item A but not Item B when all that is required of either is faith.

[Kevy Baby]

The best responses I can offer are from my own experience.

I (loosely) practice an earth-based religion (Wicca). I was drawn to this not because of what it offered me, but because the basic tenents of Wicca (the power of the elements: earth, air, fire and water and other aspects) were reflective of experiences that I had already had in my own life. It just was an extension of what I already had in my life, giving a forum for me to expand my own existence.

For example, I had already for years experienced the grounding/centering effects of nature. When I allow myself to tap into the energy that Mother Earth offers, it opens me up and I become more focused and "real." I can find no physical evidence that this energy exists, and I do not believe it exists simply because someone told me it did. I believe it simply because I experience it.

And when I am not in a place (emotionally/spiritually) where I can tap into this energy, it helps me to know simply that it is there. That, to me, is faith.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

I don't mean that to imply I think you've let your brain fall out. I have no interest in trying to talk anybody out of their faith (until they start making real world testable claims as evidence of it). I don't understand why anybody believes such things but I'm not too hepped up about it.

Just as my post was not an attack on the poster I quoted, I did not think at all that you were attacking me. I took it simply as a discussion point (I don't even want to use the word "debate").

[Alex]

So it seems to me you don't accept it entirely on faith. You believe you have had experiences with show you that what you have faith in is true. You just can't share this evidence by its very nature.

I have never had any of these experiences. So when you say:

The whole basis for faith is allowing yourself to know that the spirit is there without needing to have the hard and fast evidence. It is a freeing experience to allow yourself to be all the evidence you need.

How do I do that and let in what you believe to be true but keep out the guy on Art Bell who had a dream that convinced him the pyramids were built by an intelligent mermaid-like species that is hiding at the bottom of the deepest parts of the ocean waiting until we're advanced enough to make contact.

To me, without the experiences you've had, they both seem equally likely. To me, the only way to sort through everything is to require some evidence (and yes, to ultimately rely on people I trust to evaluate evidence) and the scientific method for 400 years has proven best (in my view) as discriminating among it all.

So, once I have an experience where God talks to me and laid out the truth of the universe I'm sure I'll believe it. That is the nature of us. But the me-right-now will think the me-when-that-happens is probably delusional unless he can provide evidence.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

How do I do that and let in what you believe to be true but keep out the guy on Art Bell who had a dream that convinced him the pyramids were built by an intelligent mermaid-like species that is hiding at the bottom of the deepest parts of the ocean waiting until we're advanced enough to make contact.

To me, without the experiences you've had, they both seem equally likely.

From your point of view, totally. That's why "faith" is a personal thing.

I really dislike the word "faith" these days. Too many connotations. "Faith" used to mean a lot of good things, but these days, it tends to describe a disreguard of facts. Truthiness.

I've had my own spiritual moments, moments of connectivity, when I felt there was more at work here than I could prove even if I used both hands...but I'd never assume that anyone should feel as I do.

I do believe that this is one of those things that you can only find if you want to find it. Of course that proves nothing. It could be that "your mind lets you see what you feel you need to see, whether it exists or not" or "people are only able to see the light when they're ready". I am inclined to believe a mixture of the two. Now there's a working paradox for you.

Besides, I'd be disappointed in Alex if he went and had a religious experience.

[innerSpaceman]

But are your own personal experiences any more of a leap of faith than if you had no such experiences?

Like Kevy, I have been into Wicca, as it is a body of beliefs and expressions that tapped into energies I had most definitely experienced. Yet, I cannot "prove" or demonstrate in any way that those experiences were not themselves delusional.

I know they have not been. But is the faith I have in spiritual energy any more grounded in truth if it's based on my personal experience rather than being based on an idea I drew out of a hat?

[Not Afraid]

What is truth anyways? There's a whole other discussion.

Alex, I think it comes down to this; either you are the higher power in your life or you are not. Personally, I like not having to be the higher power in my own life. The attached religious beliefs are extra spice to the basic tennets of belief or non belief in a higher power.