On Psalm 109 and Faith

[mousepod]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

I believe I've said this before. The state of my child's penis is not a topic in which I intend to engage in this forum.

I just assumed it would be California.

Or Florida, which is, according to Homer Simpson, "America's wang."

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

I keep trying to come up with posts without coming across as the angry atheist. It's hard.

I'm not angry at any individual for having their faith, though I will forever be baffled as to how adults can't recognize all of these competing ideas of God as nothing more than man's imperfect attempts to synthesize our shared gut desire for order and morality into fables and tales that make it easier to impart the lessons. Why people can't accept that it's myth, not literal, and instead spend time making up new rules to justify the increasing improbability of this unknowable being, is beyond me. So much energy spent in service of an analogy that could be better spent taking care of reality.

But for the most part I don't really care what other people believe. But as I get closer to having a kid, I'm growing more and more frustrated as the difficulty of being an atheist becomes clearer to me. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I guess that my parents (my mom at least) would have more easily accepted me coming out as gay then if I told her I'm raising my child without the Jewish faith. And what's crazy about that is that my parents are NOT religious people, per se. They are the epitome of cultural Jews. They're in it for the traditions, not the theism. They made a strong effort to teach me that all these things I was learning about god were allegory, that the REAL reason to be good wasn't because of fear of God but because making bad choices had real consequences, for myself and others.

Yet I know that even THEY would have difficulty letting go of that.

And I struggle mightily with how to handle it with my own child(ren). I still value much of what the structure of the religious tradition did for me. It's a ready-built community that makes the early imprinting of morality and responsibility very straight forward. Duh, that's why organized religion has been such a successful meme, it's good at what it does. And certainly my parents managed to balance their disagreement with the dogma with their desire for that structure and connection to family, immediate and extended. And I definitely don't want to disconnect my child from his family by not having him share the cultural foundations that tie us together.

But then I picture us, after a Seder, standing and looking at an open door with a full cup of wine on the table calling, in some relatively aggressive language, for Elijah to return and for God to strike down the nations of our enemies and I cringe. I picture a 13yo giving a bar mitzvah speech, talking about how he'll dedicate his life to god's teaching, and I feel a rush of dishonest shame.

I want the cultural continuity without the theistic dogmatism. But even my search for like-minded secular Jews has only turned up depressingly touchy-feely agnostics that just do a find and replace of the word "God" with "binding spirit energy that unites us all" or other such nonsense in the holy texts.

I know I'm asking for the impossible. That I can't just hope that secular communities with the strength of a community with thousands of years of consistency are just going to appear in the face of overwhelming societal pressure against it, even though I believe their impossibility to be simply a matter of circumstance, not nature. And I know that in the end I will in all llikelihood do what my parents did and do my best to take the positive community aspects while de-emphasizing the rampant smiting and rigid dogmatism.

Wow, that was a long way of saying a whole lot of nothing. I've lost my original point. I guess mostly I just want to parrot what Flippy's been getting it, that no matter how you drill down and come up with ways to allow for your particular view of a supreme being to operate and account for the apparent contradictions that arise, they all being with one very big, unavoidable "if". And "if" that is by its very nature impervious to logic.

And as a final note - does anyone mind if I pop this out into its own thread? It's far too civil and intellectual to be part of this one.

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

I believe I've said this before. The state of my child's penis is not a topic in which I intend to engage in this forum.

As they say in court, dude, you opened the door.

But I'll rephrase. What is the rational case for cloaking any practice--salutary, neutral or harmful--as being commanded by a god in which you do not believe?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Put simply, inclusion. As I think I've made clear, I'm well aware that organized religion exists and is pervasive for a reason. A document, agreed upon, set of baseline rules and rituals that allow a society to efficiently impress those too young to understand the complexity of reality with the basics of moral and ethical behavior is a damned useful and attractive thing. I happen to not believe that the only possible such set HAS to involve teaching the supernatural, however for better or for worse (I'd argue worse), that's the option I'm faced with. It's not ideal, but especially in light of my firm belief that family connectedness is an essential component in my life and in my child's, I don't have a whole lot of other avenues open to me. Yes, I could (and will) explore groups like the secular humanists who are trying to bridge that gap, and may be doing so quite well. But the fact remains even if that turns out to be as good as it can be, they are still not my family and I'm still left with the choice of abandoning that which connects me to my family vs. making some compromises and hope that I can get the message across sufficiently that we do so by choice, out of tradition, to connect to a community, not out of superstition.

[lashbear]

Is this thread still LoT-eyes-only? (not sure if Daily Grind has the same viewing restrictions as the Parking LoT)

[Ghoulish Delight]

No, the Daily Grind is publicly viewable.

[flippyshark]

Originally Posted by Alex

No, I"m going to have to stick with "Convincing your kids of the existence of Santa is morally abhorrent and a minor form of child abuse."

That's just too fun of a position to give up.

Gosh, and here I am, an atheist who is currently playing Santa Claus for money. (If it's any help, I'm not enjoying it in the least.)

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by lashbear

I've always said you're a man of easy virtue, Flippy !!

"I'll tell you what you can call her if you like...in fond remembrance of me, the Easy Virtue."
NA might get this reference right away. (But not for the reason you think.)






I read an article today wherein Richard Dawkins said this: "Religion teaches us to be satisfied with non-explanations..." I think that's one of the things about organized religion that bugs me.
Source

[lashbear]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

No, the Daily Grind is publicly viewable.

Ah, well that precludes me really saying what I think of Christianity.

Needless to say, it's not good, based on personal experiences with a [at the time about-to-become] Mega-Church.

If you wanted to, you could look up the book "People in glass houses" by Tanya Levin.

[Not Afraid]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

"I'll tell you what you can call her if you like...in fond remembrance of me, the Easy Virtue."
NA might get this reference right away. (But not for the reason you think.)

What, are you suggesting I'm not a virtuous woman? Me and Tracy, old pals.

[Gn2Dlnd]

Hey look! I started a thread!

I hope no one minds if I repost my OP to the thread from which it came. The disingenuous use of an offensive statement is germane to the original thread.

Although, it is interesting where it went instead.