The Official Harry Potter thread (SPOILERS - NO tags)

[wendybeth]

Okay, the new book is out and if anyone hasn't finished it, too bad. Here is where we discuss book number six and it's predecessors, and where we post our own theories.

I'll go first, with a caveat. I am too tired right now to defend it, but will do so- vigorously- tomorrow, after a decent nights sleep.

Dumbledore is not dead, and the thing with Snape was a set-up, a ruse, to throw off the Death Eaters and pave the way for Harry's final battle with Voldie. This is probably obvious to a lot of people, but as I said, I will defend it if necessary once I've had my beauty sleeps.

[BarTopDancer]

I would agree with you WB except...

Spoiler:

JKR has said in interviews that death is permanent and forever. She doesn't want to confuse the kiddos that their loved ones may come back.

That said I think:

Spoiler:

He is dead but will come back in some form to help Harry. I also think that he and Snape were in on it together, that Snape really is a double agent, on the side of Dumbledore to help Harry. I think when Dumbledore was begging he wasn't begging for his life, but for Snape to kill him for the greater good.

Oops! Stupid submit button.

Uber major theory ahead re: red herrings:

Spoiler:

JRK is the Queen of red herrings. Does anyone else think that Harry is the ultimate red herring? Or is that just sleep deprivation talking.

Thank you and goodnight!

[wendybeth]

I think this should be a no-spoiler thread. Like I said, if you haven't read it yet, then avert your eyes.

JK, bless her, is just a bit disingenuous. She has also said that she hasn't finished the LOTR, but come on- does anyone believe that? Her books, while wonderfully imaginitive and engrossing, owe a hell of a lot to Tolkein's. ANd while we're on the subject- Peter Pettigrew as Gollum.....any ideas? I've a few, but I need to check a few things before presenting them.

There are many reasons that I think Dumbledore is not dead, and I will post them tomorrow, as I really am wiped out tonight. (I worked all day, then came home, cooked dinner then painted the foyer and hallway, which have vaulted ceilings). I will say that this is not wishful thinking, as initiallly I saw the logic in his death and knew from his statement about Nicholas Flamel that he did not fear it. Remember, Dumbledore has, so far, not been wrong- especially in his estimation of others. Also, he has (repeatedly) told Harry of the redemptive (and superior) power of love, which Voldie could never understand. It applies to more than just Harry........

[Keelboat Captain]

Wow! This is great and what a start. I was just heading to bed when I thought to take a peek back in and found my favorite subject on. However I think I will just make a few blanket statement tonight then off to bed.
First: I thing Dumbledore is dead and will not be coming back as anything more than a painting.
Second: I was a little disappointed Harry did not learn more magic from Dumbledore like maybe how magic feels when they were in the cave.
Third: R.A.B. is Regulus ???? Black just a guess.
My question to you are:
What is going to pull Harry back to school. I think something must, could he teach DADA. I think if Hermione becomes Head Girl and Harry needs to find something in the castle he might come back.
Was Dumbledore's brother at the funeral?
Do you think one of the Horcrux's (a Cup maybe) could be in the orphanage? Although Dumbledore would have checked there closely I suppose. Ok more than I meant to start with, until tomorrow good night.

[Not Afraid]

I changed the thread title to warn that there be spoilers ahead and no tags used. Then I scrolled REALLY FAST down here to post this.

[Betty]

Discussion has already been going on here: http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/showthread.php?t=1620

[libraryvixen]

I give full credit to Tracilicious on the theory that Harry's scar is the last Horcrux.

[wendybeth]

Originally Posted by Betty

Discussion has already been going on here: http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/showthread.php?t=1620

Doh! Well, one can never have too many HP threads going...I posted this thread for Keelboat Captain, and I'd forgotten about the release day one. I think the scar as a horcrux is a great theory, too.

Now I have to go and catch up on the other thread to see what other theories have been presented. I certainly wouldn't want to be redundant.

[wendybeth]

Okay- I made it through the maze of spoilers- lol. Great posts, and great ideas.

I think Snape is a bastard, but one with remorse and regret.(2) I also think that he, unlike Voldie, is capable of love, and that is why he is working against his former master. I believe that he was in love with Lily and when he discovered that he had played a role in her death, he was overcome with remorse and and wanted revenge against her murderer. Dumbledore keeps saying that love is the strongest magic of all (1)- even the darkest arts can be defeated by it. If Snape is motivated by such a powerful magic, then he would be able to prevent Voldemort from seeing his true mission. He could have hurt any one of the kids at any time, yet he didn't. Even at the end, he was still 'teaching' Harry, and only lost his temper when called a coward. (3)

I think Snape and Dumbledore set up this scenario, to lure out the Death-Eaters and fool Voldemort into thinking the school, and Harry, were without their leader. They couldn't let anyone else into the secret, as Voldemort would easily be able to the truth then. I'll back this up later, but I have a few other things I want to cover first.

Lupin and Bill will be released from the curse once Fenrir is dead.

So far, unless JK introduces a new character in #7, I believe RAB is Regulus. He disappeared, but no one knows how or where he died, just that he had turned his back on the Dark Lord. I think he may be dead, as the Black house (and Kreacher) probably wouldn't have gone to Harry if Regulus were still living. I also think that Kreacher hid one of the horcrux's- remember in book 5 when he was stashing away all the Black family artifacts? So, all Harry has to do is discover this, and order Kreacher to give it to him.

Peter Pettigrew.....He is still in the wings, and Dumbledore indicated that he may end up being of great help to Harry in the end. And what about the new Minister of Magic? Does his status as a vampire play into the story, or is it yet another flipping herring?

Okay- back to housepainting.

(1)Pgs 508-512.
(2) Pgs 548-550
(3) pGS 602- 605

[Jazzman]

If nobody minds, I'm going to cross-post my theories regarding HBP from MiceChat (saves me time) but I am putting them in spoiler boxes to save space and spare those who have read them already.

Spoiler:

I’m doubting that Dumbledore is actually gone and that Snape is really evil. Rowling loves to put in little hints that you don’t realize until later, and this book seemed chock full of them. Most obvious of which, Dumbledore’s attempt to turn Draco around. From page 592. “I can help you Draco... He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine... Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me... Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother...” He’s talking about faking one’s death! And later, “No Draco, it is my mercy, and not yours, that matters now.” Obviously Dumbledore is in control, and I also believe that his later pleading was simply to add to the ruse. Further, I do not believe that he would have stunned an invisible Harry, forcing him to watch the horror of Dumbledore’s murder, unless he had a great reason. And what better way to convince the world, and your enemies, that you are dead than to convince the ones who love you most and who are closest to you? If Harry believes, Voldemort surely will. And getting ultimate credibility for Snape from Voldy at the same time? Perfect. Further, in OotP Dumbledore remarked how much easier it was to accomplish tasks when released from the school. Well, now he certainly is released. But the thing that did it for me was this, from page 645, “Bright, white flames had erupted around Dumbledore’s body and the table upon which it lay... White smoke spiraled into the air and made strange shapes: Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a Phoenix fly joyfully into the blue...” Rowling never adds a “so-and-so thought they saw such-and-such” unless they actually did. Remember Draco catching a fleeting glimpse of Harry’s shoe? And the fact that Dumbledore’s body disappears behind flames that diminish to reveal the tomb, with nobody seeing his body actually interred, seems like the old “smoke and mirrors” bit to me. And last, I sincerely doubt that Rowling would have made Phoenixes so central in the books if it weren’t for something like this. Phoenix means returning from the grave, at least metaphorically. I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t return.

And regarding Snape.

Spoiler:

My own suspicion is this. He is, through it all, good at heart. His malice towards Harry stems from his malice towards James, which in turn springs from, I believe, intense jealousy. I believe that Snape was (wait for it!!!) in love with Lilly, and he hated James, his tormenter and sworn enemy, for stealing her heart. Remember that when Harry was in the Pensieve, watching Sirius and James bully Snape, it was Lilly who intervened and made them stop (and, incidentally, we now know that she was a master potion maker, a major attraction to someone like Snape.) Snape’s harsh names thrown at her were just in reaction to being embarrassed. He loved her, and ultimately caused her death after hearing the prophecy. I believe that this is why Dumbledore trusts him completely. He knows that Snape’s heart broke when he realized that he had caused the death of the woman he loved, and therefore was forever committed to righting that wrong. Imagine; what if Harry was less pure and strong, was deeply in love with Ginny, but she fell in love with Draco, and Harry inadvertently got her killed. I imagine that he’d act much as Snape does. Also, if Snape was truly Dark enough to murder Albus Dumbledore, he wouldn't have simply knocked out Flitwick and left. If Snape was a true Death Eater, he would have killed him, knowing that he was an enemy of Voldemort. No, Snape is still undercover. Deep cover, now.

And my little caveat.

Spoiler:

As for Dumbledore, I’m going to play Devil's Advocate a little here. I still believe the theories which I posted, but I can’t help but wonder if those same clues that I picked up on could actually be proof that Dumbledore isn’t coming back. Here’s why. These books are kids books. Yes, adults are equally in love with them too, but still, they’re kids books. And kids books share the common trait of teaching lessons. I wonder if, perhaps, Dumbledore’s death is such a lesson. In OotP, when Sirius died, the reader experienced it through Harry. We saw how Harry reacted; his disbelief, hope that it wasn’t real, gradual acceptance, coping with grief, etc. I wonder if that was “Death Lesson 1.” Now, with Dumbledore’s death, (Lesson 2) the reader experiences death for themselves. Where before we lamented for Harry and his pain, we now lament at our own sense of loss. And all of Rowling’s clever little clues, giving us hope that this isn’t real, may simply be a way of creating that feeling of disbelief in the reader, just as Harry felt it for Sirius. “No, he’s not dead! Look at this!”

So, I have to wonder if this is all Rowling’s way of teaching kids about death, and loss. With the funeral, the way her descriptions pulled you in so that you felt that you were there, experiencing it, feeling it; and now the long, slow path of acceptance, it definitely seems plausible. I hope that this isn’t true, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it is.

So those are my thoughts, anyhow. Whatever happens, I’m loving this series more and more and more....