Fate and Destiny: a philosophy thread

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

I believe I have the same messed-up wireing as Alex so my atheism....

I find that to be an interesting statement by both you and Alex. Messed up wiring. I have found most atheists I have known (not a whole bunch mind you, but a few) and those who make themselves known in the media are quite a condescending bunch who think they are the only ones with wiring that works. Can't quantify God, so therefore no God can exist. Only logical to them, and anything else is unlogical. Proof rather than faith or it is simply gibberish. I find your attitude quite refreshing.

I have had my experiences with what I believe to be supernatural forces. I have no doubt about I experienced and no doubt what the cause was. However, that being said, I have had other experiences that make make me certainly figure that God is not someone to meddle in my day to day affairs, whether I ask him to or not. I used the term "divine micromanagement" in a thread a while ago, and I simply don't believe that God operates in that fashion.

God established the world with certain natural and physical laws. With exception, of course, he allows those those laws to play themselves out. He provided free will to allow the choice to do whatever we would wish. I am reminded of this exchange from "Bruce Almighty" -

Bruce: "How do you make someone love you without messing with free will?"
God: "Welcome to my world."

[lizziebith]

Caminante, no hay camino...Se hace camino al andar. -- Antonio Machado (1875-1939)

From a poem I read about 10 years ago... the translation is, roughly: "walker, there is no road...we build the road by walking."

Ever since I read this, I've felt a sense of peace about my crazy life. I never would have thought I'd be the person I am now -- by this I mean: lead the lifestyle I live, hold the job I hold, have the friends/loved ones I have. The younger me would have been aghast. I'm no longer filled with righteous anger, I no longer cling to people in the hopes that said contact might make me whole, I no longer believe ANYTHING to be true, solid, or absolute. And my years of life have made this so. And, dare I say, happy.

I have built my life, as the poem says, by moving through it, and learning from it. I have NEVER pretended to know what was around the bend, and have been, consequentially, both delighted and horrified by what I've found there. But I've NEVER, ever, been bored or disappointed by life. I've watched it unfold, almost like a disinterested observer, and said to myself: "Wow. Never saw THAT coming."

I believe that every experience I have I take on as my "walker's baggage." I can then use it or discard it as needed, as I encounter each new experience. There is no fate, as the future (and past -- my interpretation of it, at least!) doesn't exist, until some weird accident on the part of all the known and unknown forces of the universe, suddenly forges a new path for me.

I put on my little rucksack, and venture forth, hopefully, and with GREAT interest.

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I find that to be an interesting statement by both you and Alex. Messed up wiring. I have found most atheists I have known (not a whole bunch mind you, but a few) and those who make themselves known in the media are quite a condescending bunch who think they are the only ones with wiring that works.

Heh heh, what is it about the media that makes the people who share your beliefs such an embarrasment? Regardless of beliefs I have a sound distaste for righteousness which unfortunately seems to have it's adherents everywhere. Give me a sincere Christian over a righteous atheist any day.

The existence of God is an interesting question, the nature of God infinitely more complex. I'm reading Umberto Ecco's Baudolino right now which spends a lot of time wrapped in discussions of theology and philosophy from a medieval perspective. At times it seems silly recounting the various heresies of the times concerning the divine nature of Christ, the Trinity, the perfection of God, etc. but it's playfulness seems to underscore the impossible task of truely defining who or what God is, especially through the use of logic and reasoning.

[Alex]

You should track down and read The Heavenly City of the Eighteenth-Century Philosphers. It is an old book, essentially a transcription of a series of lectures given by Carl L. Becker at Yale Law School in 1932.

Becker was a philosopher/historian (and in the book he does a great job of illustrating where those disciplines separate). The first part is about how "reason" and "logic" as we know it today to undermine religion is essentially the same thing as used by Dante and Thomas Aquinas to support it.

Part II is about how the 18th century philosphers overthrew Aquinas's "Heavenly City" using logic, reason, and observation (the scientific method), and how they were appalled by where this lead them (a purely mechanical universe without purpose). They then recoiled instinctively and created a new Heavenly City out of "natural law" with posterity playing the role of Jesus.

The whole book is only about 160 pages and is so well written that I think you'd really enjoy it if you haven't already read it. Since it is based on lectures it reads out loud particularly well and whenever I reread it I mostly do so out loud so I can feel the flow and energy of it.

Essentially, it is seeking to dispel the notion that Hume, Diderot, Voltaire, etc. had an essentially modern mindset toward logic, rationality, and atheism.


scaeagles, I never termed my wiring as messed up. It is just the way it is. Just as I think your wiring makes you believe in a god that doesn't exist because evolutionary forces found an advantage in such belief. As we've solidified the post-evolutionary nature of man I think such tendency towards blind faith will slowly dilute and perhaps eventually disappear.

I imagine you would find this the most condescending view of your faith possible: essentially, that you can't help it. (Also, I don't really claim that god doesn't exist, just that until something even remotely suggests such an existence I see no reason to suppose it.)

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

Heh heh, what is it about the media that makes the people who share your beliefs such an embarrasment?

Most certainly there are many.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

I imagine you would find this the most condescending view of your faith possible: essentially, that you can't help it.

Not really, because, well, I can help it. I have most certainly gone through major time pans in my life that included no faith or adherence to such at all. Experiences that go beyond faith - and showed me the reality of what i believe - most certainly have given me a grounding I may have never found otherwise.

[Alex]

Yes, but we aren't talking about reality. We're talking about what we think reality is. And regardless of how much you think your faith is a choice, I do not.

And since you think I have a choice in what I think, me essentially saying you're not responsible for your thinking (or faithing) is, I would think, condescending. But I wouldn't suppose to tell you what you must think of what I think of your thinking, it was just a prediction on my part.

[wendybeth]

I do subscribe to the belief that some people are wired in such a way that they lean toward the spiritual in life, whereas others are more scientific or empirical. Lol- my mom always said that even though I am a Leo, my Pisces moon cancelled out my leonine tendencies towards materialism and gave me a more spiritual outlook- she would say this like she did me a huge favor having me at that place in time. (She is an accomplished astrologist, although it's not really done anything for her). I tend to believe a bit in both- that it helps to have an inclination toward spirituality, but experience plays heavily into what a person ultimately developes as a belief system.

That's today, anyway.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Ponine

Kevy : Could you elaborate please?

I want to give an opinion, but I think I want to know what this means first.

It is hard to provide a detailed elaboration to such a basic concept (I say this not to be condescending, but because the question has me a little stumped). In searching for an answer online which would (hopefully) help me better express the thought, I ran across this:

Witches have a very strict belief in the Law of Three which states that whatever we send out into our world shall return to us three fold either good or bane. With this in mind, a "True Witch" would hesitate in doing magick to harm or manipulate another because that boomerang we throw will eventually come back to us much larger and harder then when we threw it.

Also, there are variations of the "Wiccan Reed" (or "Rede"), which sort of highlights many of the beliefs that many Witches follow. One such variation can be found here. The conclusion is almost always:

These Eight words the Reed fulfill:
"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"

One of the more interesting (to me) aspects of Wicca is that it is VERY loosly defined. There are no hard and fast rules and definitely no dogma. It is a very eclectic belief system with much room for customization for personal preferences and beliefs. Our "Coven" (I use that term VERY loosly as we are small and hardly take ourselves too seriously) get-togethers are often as much social as they are spiritual.

Wicca does not involve blood-letting, animal sacrafice or running around naked in the woods. Also, other than a few words and symbols that have been borrowed and grossly distorted, "Charmed" has NOTHING to do with Wicca (although GusGus and I do watch it).

Wicca IS a simple, earth-based Pagan belief system

Does that answer your question?

[Fab]

Having returned to the Catholic Church in the seventeen years since I last posted here, I do believe in God, Mary, etc. but my leanings are more Socialist Rebel Pagan Roots Gnostic Mary Magdalene was the true head of the church after Christ type. Fortunately, I have a Radical Socialist Priest from the Philippines as my confessor, who laughs himself into tears every time I stroll into the Confessional.

But there is one thing: I think God is "only human" and does make mistakes. It's the only way I can accept everything else that's happened.