Get your own damn health care

[Prudence]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I think you have a misconception. Employers do not pay one dime of your benefits nor any of your social security or medicare. This is a myth. When anyone is hired, the consideration is not the salary or rate per hour, but the cost of employment. Yes, technically the company pays for it, but it is simply money that you don't see in the form of salary - it's the cost of employment. They cannot hire someone at $10/hour unless they can afford a cost of employment of probably $16. That's a guesstimate.

I am perfectly aware of how my health care benefits are obtained. Yes, my employer does pay a portion of my health care premiums. Every year they hand out the cost per employee sheets. Unless they're lying, I see how much of the premium is paid by my employer on my behalf. These amounts are not reported on my income tax forms as income, but rather by the company as expenses. So I respectfully suggest that you are mistaken and that a portion of my medical insurance premiums are paid by my employer. (And I'm also perfectly capable of reading a W2 and noting the various deductions, which were not under discussion.) And if in this magical system my employer gives me the full $16 "cost of employment" to apply to HSAs or premiums or whatever, then fine. But what I expect would actually happen is a great cry of "Goodie!" from the administrative offices as they no longer have to pay $6/hr for me, but I still take home $10. And now I purchase coverage, assuming I can afford it, on my own.

I'm asking for a basic level of care, in the same way most people expect a basic level of fire or police services. Am I to assume you believe that if someone can not afford life-saving treatment that we say tut-tut, not our responsibility, and let them die? So sorry chemo's expensive. Too bad you didn't earn enough to pay for it all yourself. How civilized. The rich get health care and the poor are completely expendable.

[Prudence]

Additional note: I actually don't intend for anyone to pay any portion of my future health care needs. I intend to work my ass off and stash away every penny I can in anticipation of that inevitable rainy day. That's why I spend my days working full-time and my nights in law school. Because I don't intend to rely on anyone other than myself. Heck, I don't even rely on my spouse to take care of me. Still, if a chunk of blue ice nails me on the way to the car and I end up on a ventilator, I hope I'll be taken care of even though I'm still young and poor and not left on the mountainside as carrion.

[scaeagles]

Prudence, you are of course technically correct. Your employer does pay the insurance premium or portion of the social security and medicare withholding, etc. But it is all smoke and mirrors. They only pay that because you are employed there. If you were not employed there, they would not incur those costs.

I really respect your gumption and willfulness in putting money away for that rainy day. If more people had that as a goal, fewer would find themselves in need of help they could have provided for themselves with better planning. Does this mean everyone could? No. But I beleve more can than currently do. It is an issue of prioritization. If I choose to spend a couple Gs on my DL vacation this summer with the family, that's 2 Gs less I have to put away for that rainy day. When that rainy day comes, if it does, it could be that I could have used that 2 Gs for something more important. My choice, my responsibility.

Perfect system? No. BUt the fact of the matter is we live in a market driven economy in all aspects of life. Those with the money can afford nicer cars, homes, whatever. Of course those with more money can afford better quality health care. The government here in AZ does provide health care for the poor. There is medicare and medicaid on the federal level, and hospitals by law cannot turn away anyone who needs emergency assistance.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Yes, they can't be turned away, but they can be put in horrific debt that will they will never get out from under, simply because they had the gaul to want to live.

There are certain things that, for the viability of the society, should not be left to an open market. A minimum level of education and a minimum level of health care are tops on that list. Money is supposed to be a tool, not a method for weeding out those that deserve to live and those that don't. Whether I have a nice car, a big TV, an expensive home, and luxurious vacations are luxuries. Life should not be a luxury.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Life should not be a luxury.

Never said it should be. I am not against medicare and medicaid and the Arizona system called AHCCCS (pronouced "access"). These are necessary and good.

And they can get out from under such debt, GD. This is what bankruptcy protection is all about.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Oh yeah, because bankruptcy is such a joy and wonder. Bankruptcy is hell, don't kid yourself.

Medicare and medicaid are very limited in who they cover. Medicare is only for the elderly. Medicaid only covers the young, the old, or pregnant women except in VERY rare cases. They are hardly sufficient.

[scaeagles]

I am aware that bankruptcy is hell. My dad declared when I was in HS (primarily due to the aforementioned lengthy illness of my mom). My dad now owns a home again and has rebuilt his credit - took quite a few years. It is not a perfect solution, but it is what it is. Protection from creditors when you have nothing.

I'm a safety net kind of guy - I really am. I just think that there are people who do not and will not take responsibilty for their spending choices and then expect others to take care of them when it is needed.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Yes, bankruptcy is the best tool for the situation it's meant to resolve. However, to say, "It's okay, there's always bankruptcy" is hardly a solution.

As is often the case, I'm a moderate on this issue. I don't want to see full national health care, a-la Hillary Clinton. But I think that the current programs are horribly inadequate.

I know there are people that won't take the necessary responsibility, but oh well. I do not want to live in an unhealthy nation. Helping to provide for the nation's health is in my best interest. As you well know, and agree, it would be unconscionable to have a system where people are turned away in emergency situations because they can't pay. But without some level of coverage beyond simple catastrophic coverage available to everyone, the likelihood of more people needing to take advantage of things like AHCCCS increases, and the likelihood of people having to default on payments through bankruptcy increases, and therefore in the long run will cost more than if the catastrophic medical events are prevented in the first place.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

I do not want to live in an unhealthy nation. Helping to provide for the nation's health is in my best interest.

To what extreme does this go to, though? I realize you are not saying such a thing, and I am simply playing devil's advocate, but why not completely ban tobacco? Or food with a certain fat content? Or transfatty acids? Or any number of things that make us unhealthy.

So many ailments are completely avoidable. Should the government ensure that circumstances that can contribute to those situations are eliminated? No. I do not believe, then, that I should be held in anyway responsible, nor should the government be held responsible, for choices made that lead to health problems.

There are, of course, situations which are not a matter of choice. I am much more sympathetic to those, as i am sure everyone is.

I have an acquiantance who had a child with some health problems and the benefits at his job were not adequate. So he took a second full time job at - gasp - Walmart. Did it strictly for the health program he was able to get. This was 18 months or so ago, and I am not sure of the status of things.

Tough times suck. Big time. But I believe that there are outs that people do not consider because they are not easy enough. For every one of those, there are others who have no alternative but to have government assistance, and I am all for it.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Timing is everything, here's an article that underscores the sad state that current private health coverage is in...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6895896/