Political Persuasion- how did you get there?

Alex · 10-18-2006, 01:44 PM

And that is where the honest disagreement is. Generally people don't see themselves as wanting to hurt people. You see it as such, but they honestly don't. And much of what is seen as "good" to progressives is seen as an active harm to "conservatives."

And it is that inability to honestly disagree that causes hatred and extreme divides. When a liberal says that "Republicans want poor people to starve" do they really believe that? When a conservative says "liberals want a welfare state that creates a permanent underclass that will provide them with politcal power" do they really believe that?

Both sides honestly believe that their views would result in a net positive result. And only the most ideological don't recognize that "net positive" includes a fair amount of "gross negative."

That is the honest debate that most people apparently can't have. There is a huge difference between "I think you are wrong about the outcome of your policies and evil ends will result" and "you are intentionally persuing evil ends." Yes, there are evil people, but not nearly so many as we like to pretend.

I think exempting the poor completely from income tax is a net negative, most progressives think it is a net positive. That can be honestly debated. But what happens in modern political debate is that we conflate outcomes with motivations which puts everything within an immediately false framework. Also, it allows us to dismiss out of hand and ad hominem ideas we don't like. "I believe that Politician Y's plan will result in a bad thing. Therefore Politician Y must be aware of that and want it to happen. Therefore Politician Y is a bad person. Therefore everything Politician Y says and does is bad."

This is why blanket hatred confuses me. Clinton did a lot of good things and he did a lot of bad things, but I recognize that regardless of outcome he was likely always trying to do what he thought were good things. Same with Bush, and Polk, and Tyler, and most every other president.

10-18-2006, 01:44 PM	#11
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	And that is where the honest disagreement is. Generally people don't see themselves as wanting to hurt people. You see it as such, but they honestly don't. And much of what is seen as "good" to progressives is seen as an active harm to "conservatives." And it is that inability to honestly disagree that causes hatred and extreme divides. When a liberal says that "Republicans want poor people to starve" do they really believe that? When a conservative says "liberals want a welfare state that creates a permanent underclass that will provide them with politcal power" do they really believe that? Both sides honestly believe that their views would result in a net positive result. And only the most ideological don't recognize that "net positive" includes a fair amount of "gross negative." That is the honest debate that most people apparently can't have. There is a huge difference between "I think you are wrong about the outcome of your policies and evil ends will result" and "you are intentionally persuing evil ends." Yes, there are evil people, but not nearly so many as we like to pretend. I think exempting the poor completely from income tax is a net negative, most progressives think it is a net positive. That can be honestly debated. But what happens in modern political debate is that we conflate outcomes with motivations which puts everything within an immediately false framework. Also, it allows us to dismiss out of hand and ad hominem ideas we don't like. "I believe that Politician Y's plan will result in a bad thing. Therefore Politician Y must be aware of that and want it to happen. Therefore Politician Y is a bad person. Therefore everything Politician Y says and does is bad." This is why blanket hatred confuses me. Clinton did a lot of good things and he did a lot of bad things, but I recognize that regardless of outcome he was likely always trying to do what he thought were good things. Same with Bush, and Polk, and Tyler, and most every other president.
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