Ta Ta Jesse Helms

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick

And I never asked you to respect him, nor asserted that you should. How you feel about him and what you say about him is your prerogative. Different people respond to things in different ways. It's OK that you wouldn't choose to treat him with respect. It's OK that I do my best to treat everyone with respect regardless of whether they deserve it. One can respectfully disagree. It doesn't mean I condone anything, and it doesn't mean that I won't and haven't spent a terrific amount of energy throughout my life to try to enlighten the ignorant people I come across.

We're going around in circles, but we agree very much about the negative effect he had on the people around him. Where we disagree is that - and correct me if I'm wrong - you believe that speaking out against him is the best way to inform and change people's minds, and I believe that way will not change the minds of the people who truly need to have their minds changed.

JW, please understand that I am on your side - we both want this world to come to a complete acceptance of your rights. I encourage you to change minds your way. I will do it my way. Our cause is the same.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick

I'm not sure if you're referring to me - but I've never said anything of the kind.

No, not you.

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

First of all, I never once addressed you or anyone in this thread. I was speaking in general terms. And I hate to be a semantic ass here but:



I believe that there are quite a few remarks that I have read both in this thread and elsewhere that fall under this definition. I think the real question is whether hate can be justified. I think it most certainly can, but in my own life, I try to avoid it.

And so, you can continue to say that you don't hate the man, and perhaps you don't, but I think there are many who would admit that their emotions are pretty much in line with at least one of the definitions above.

Sorry, I have none of those feeling towards Jesse Helms. Again, you assume feelings that do not exist.

Originally Posted by Boss Radio

Hatred is a human emotion. It's going to manifest itself in everyone, like love, or fear, or whatever. Glee? Heartburn?

I hate lots of things: Mint flavored ice cream. People who wear too much cologne. Mornings. Tea. Camping. Charlie Sheen. Many, many things. But I'm ok with it.

The metaphor that we have been playing volleyball with is a pure hypothetical construct. Nobody here HATES Jesse Helms because (I'm guessing) nobody here knew him personally, or ever met him.

That being said, pretty much everyone here HATES what he stood for, and what he used as his political ammunition for decades. He used you. He used me. He used all of us, and we paid him to do it.

Since he was a public figure, he's up for grabs like Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, and Carrot Top. Lots of people have no problem hating Britney, or Carrot Top, or the Verizon "Can You Hear You Now" guy. Show of hands: who among us doesn't hate the Verizon guy?

And how many of us hate George Bush on a daily basis?
Thought so.

But to hate the late Jesse Helms suddenly inspires an almost Christ-like reflexive response to give thought and pause and be the better person, which is admirable. Heck, the bible even says that. And Helms waved that bible as his own personal weapon and shield. You can try all you want to listen to him and his believers respectfully and then eloquently make your point...

But he sure as hell didn't listen to you when he was alive. Now he really ain't gonna listen.

A George Bushian oversimplification would be: People who hate are bad. Haters are bad. Hating haters is bad becase then we are as bad as the haters because we hate them.

I disagree.

HATE with all your heart the kind of BLIND HATRED that Helms spewed. Let it make you mad. See red. Fight it with words, with deeds, with songs, and political cartoons. Mock it. Lampoon it. Make it preposterous - as laughable as driving a Lincoln Navigator with a baby sealskin interior. Make that kind of HATRED go out of fashion.

Pretending that we somehow should not hate or don't have the capacity to hate is just wrong. We are human. We are programmed with a menu of emotions including the capacity to both love and hate.

Emotions have dangerous flipsides: anxiety, meet depression. Love, meet hate.

So, likely nobody here hates Jesse Helms, the man.

But 99% of the people here HATE what he believed, and the ongoing damage that his beliefs caused, and continue to cause.

Everyone here should HATE what he stood for. He's unimportant in the cosmic scheme - he was just a two-bit flesh and blood vessel filled with bad ideas which he spewed forth while we, the taxpayers, paid him to do so.

And you know what else? Either he really hated you and me and all of us...or he could really care less, and was just pandering his poison to his hard line constituents.

Either way, he was a very bad apple.

I'm personally glad he's gone.

As a public figure and role model, he belongs to us - to love, to hate, to respect...

And yes, if we wish, to draw a caricature of him, gutted and filled with candy-flavored condoms and made into a giant Safe Sex Mussolini-like pinata.

He's just a stupid dead guy.

But never forget what that stupid dead guy stood for.

And HATE it.

Amen.

It's my turn to disagree. I think you use the word "hate" to freely. It's easy to do, and we all do it from time to time. Hate is not a good thing.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by JWBear

Sorry, I have none of those feeling towards Jesse Helms. Again, you assume feelings that do not exist.

And again, with all due respect, you assume that my comments are directed at you specifically. They aren't. As I said, perhaps you don't harbor any of this hatred, but there are plenty of people that do. Not necessarily in this thread even, but in general. That's what I'm trying to address.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

I don't think MBC or I were suggesting anyone needed to feel differently than they are feeling. We are dealing with it differently than, say, someone who draws your (very vividly described, btw!) pinata. We don't think that kind of thing would be helpful to us as people. But that opinion isn't stopping anyone else from feeling however they need to feel, doing whatever they need to do, to make themselves feel better and improve the world.

Someone very wise told me recently about a Buddhist teaching that I like very much. "Hatred is like holding on to a burning ember. You're the one who gets burned." It's OK for anyone to focus on him and hold on to their outrage. Of COURSE it is. But it's also OK for me to try to move on and let go but always be informed by his awful legacy as I attempt to do good in the world, to try to fill the karmic hole he made.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick

...Someone very wise told me recently about a Buddhist teaching that I like very much. "Hatred is like holding on to a burning ember. You're the one who gets burned." ....

I agree with this very much. This is one of the reasons I was getting frustrated that several people repeatedly told me that I hate Senator Helms when I do not. I try my very best to never hold on to hate. If I feel it, I let it go.

This doesn't mean I can't dislike something, or be appalled, or disgusted, or morally outraged. Those are natural reactions to things that are disagreeable. Hatred is not.

If I might be permitted to add to your metaphor... Not only should we drop hatred when we feel it start to burn; once it's on the ground, we should stomp it out or pour water on it, or bury it in the dirt lest it start a fire that gets out of control.

[Boss Radio]

Originally Posted by JWBear

I try my very best to never hold on to hate. If I feel it, I let it go.

This doesn't mean I can't dislike something, or be appalled, or disgusted, or morally outraged. Those are natural reactions to things that are disagreeable. Hatred is not.

If I might be permitted to add to your metaphor... Not only should we drop hatred when we feel it start to burn; once it's on the ground, we should stomp it out or pour water on it, or bury it in the dirt lest it start a fire that gets out of control.

Beautifully, eloquently stated. And certainly words to which we all aspire.

[Boss Radio]

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick

I don't think MBC or I were suggesting anyone needed to feel differently than they are feeling. We are dealing with it differently than, say, someone who draws your (very vividly described, btw!) pinata. We don't think that kind of thing would be helpful to us as people. But that opinion isn't stopping anyone else from feeling however they need to feel, doing whatever they need to do, to make themselves feel better and improve the world.

Someone very wise told me recently about a Buddhist teaching that I like very much. "Hatred is like holding on to a burning ember. You're the one who gets burned." It's OK for anyone to focus on him and hold on to their outrage. Of COURSE it is. But it's also OK for me to try to move on and let go but always be informed by his awful legacy as I attempt to do good in the world, to try to fill the karmic hole he made.

Of course. The conversation has become semantic at this point - we're all saying basically the same thing.

You, MBC and JWB are very kind, loving people. People like you make the world a better place. Philosophically, you are right. All of you echo the great Master Po when he taught young Grasshopper how to channel his emotions.
But remember, when faced with prejudice, hate and blind ignrance, Kwai Chiang Cain would gracefully kick his opponent's ass and then move on.
He channeled his emotions, but still knew when and how to use them.
And yes, he used them in self defense. And I'm sure Master Po disapproved of grave dancing. And yes, it was just a TV show, but dammit, it was a good one.

All I'm sayin' is...it's ok to hate a virulent, bad, hutful philosophy. I think that is the very best use of our capacity for hatred. Hating dangerous ideology enough to want to change it is a good thing...and yes, change ultimately occurs through deeds, like you nice people are all saying.

And did I mention I HATE all organized religion?

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Interesting discussion and lots of food for thought there, Boss Radio.

I think we can all agree that everyone hated what Helms stood for. So, there’s no disagreement there. In fact, I would say that it is unanimous in this thread. And, for the record I don’t think there is anything particularly wrong with hating inanimate objects. I pretty much hate mint ice cream with all my soul. But I think the line gets a little blurry than some might want to admit when it comes to Helms. People are quick to say that they didn’t hate the man but they hated everything he stood for. But calling him every name in the book isn’t really an attack on his positions, it is an expression of hatred for the man. And I’m not going to say that someone isn’t entitled to that opinion, that he was an evil, vile man. But that simply isn’t how I choose to focus my energy.

I don’t avoid hatred of people in an attempt to be more Christ-like, I do it because I don’t think that anything positive comes from it in my life. I don’t think it brings us any closer to the goal of equality for all people. In fact, I think it separates more than it brings together. I think bigotry is more often the result of fear and ignorance than it is actual hatred. And fear and ignorance can often be combated more successfully through respectful dialog. Sure, someone who truly hates black people or gays isn’t going to change through dialog, but what about all those other people who are simply following what they were taught by their parents or their church, or those who simply fear what they don’t understand.

I always found it interesting that when I would come out to a friend I had known for a long time, they always had a million questions. And I think that stems from the fact that they had never really known someone who was gay on a personal level before. And usually after we spent some time talking, they came to the understanding that nothing had changed, that I was the same person that I always was. And they were forced to confront some of these long-held misconceptions they had, this certainty that gay people were sooo different from them. Turns out, we have far more in common than differences. Imagine that.

And so, when I’m confronted by someone who holds on to this ignorance and fear, I always see an opportunity to try and change their perspective. But I’m sure not going to do it through name calling and telling them they are horrible people for believing what they do. And if I let anger or hatred take control of me, we simply cannot communicate effectively with each other. My method works, I’ve seen it work. It does not work on someone filled with hatred, however, because there is no desire to understand the other side. And if I were filled with hate and anger, I would have little desire to understand the other side either. That’s why I think that hatred can be more of a hindrance than an asset.

This is perhaps a poor analogy but, how many times was it said during the Iraq War that winning the battle was meaningless if the hearts and minds of the people couldn’t be won. And that’s kind of what I feel like here – it’s one thing to beat down a bigot through force, quite another to change the mind of his followers and thereby make him irrelevant. So, there are those who want to shout down Fred Phelps and show their hatred for the man, and I suppose that has its place. But I rather like the fact that other than his brainwashed family members, he really has no support from anyone. He is a caricature, someone who is generally pitied by all of society who sits back and watches hate envelope and destroy him. And in many ways, the same thing was true of Helms. He will never be remembered for any of the miniscule good that he did, so don’t sweat it. He will always be remembered for the bigot he was. Of this, I have no doubt.

There are two fronts to this ongoing battle against discrimination. One is to take on the truly vile in our society and the other is to engage in all of those who don’t act out of hatred but out of fear and ignorance. And while hatred may have its place for the former, it simply isn’t effective for the latter. So I will let those who want to destroy the evil-doers of society have at it with little complaint from me. But I would like to think that I am doing my part as well, every time I am able to get someone to reexamine their position. And for what I’m trying to do, hate simply doesn’t work.

[Boss Radio]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

Interesting discussion and lots of food for thought there, Boss Radio.

I think we can all agree that everyone hated what Helms stood for. So, there’s no disagreement there. In fact, I would say that it is unanimous in this thread. And, for the record I don’t think there is anything particularly wrong with hating inanimate objects. I pretty much hate mint ice cream with all my soul. But I think the line gets a little blurry than some might want to admit when it comes to Helms. People are quick to say that they didn’t hate the man but they hated everything he stood for. But calling him every name in the book isn’t really an attack on his positions, it is an expression of hatred for the man. And I’m not going to say that someone isn’t entitled to that opinion, that he was an evil, vile man. But that simply isn’t how I choose to focus my energy.

Calling a bigot a bigot is ok. Calling a racist homophobe a racist homophobe is ok. That's what he was.

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

I don’t avoid hatred of people in an attempt to be more Christ-like, I do it because I don’t think that anything positive comes from it in my life. I don’t think it brings us any closer to the goal of equality for all people. In fact, I think it separates more than it brings together. I think bigotry is more often the result of fear and ignorance than it is actual hatred. And fear and ignorance can often be combated more successfully through respectful dialog. Sure, someone who truly hates black people or gays isn’t going to change through dialog, but what about all those other people who are simply following what they were taught by their parents or their church, or those who simply fear what they don’t understand.

Yes, bigotry is fear and ignorance and MUST be confronted head-on. How come Don Imus' nappy headed hos was so terrible and shocking that he lost his lame-ass DJ job, and Helms was wandering around Congress saying far worse things every day, affecting legislation that affects you and me?

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

I always found it interesting that when I would come out to a friend I had known for a long time, they always had a million questions. And I think that stems from the fact that they had never really known someone who was gay on a personal level before. And usually after we spent some time talking, they came to the understanding that nothing had changed, that I was the same person that I always was. And they were forced to confront some of these long-held misconceptions they had, this certainty that gay people were sooo different from them. Turns out, we have far more in common than differences. Imagine that.

You're a very nice, thoughtful and kind person...and someone I'm proud to be friends with. You probably weren't hanging out with people who would lynch you.

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

And so, when I’m confronted by someone who holds on to this ignorance and fear, I always see an opportunity to try and change their perspective. But I’m sure not going to do it through name calling and telling them they are horrible people for believing what they do. And if I let anger or hatred take control of me, we simply cannot communicate effectively with each other. My method works, I’ve seen it work. It does not work on someone filled with hatred, however, because there is no desire to understand the other side. And if I were filled with hate and anger, I would have little desire to understand the other side either. That’s why I think that hatred can be more of a hindrance than an asset.

In the ongoing war of ideas, all options must be left on the table. I'm not saying make decisions based on hate and anger, but don't discount the emotions you feel when you are met with injustice, prejudice and inhumanity.
It's ok to hate inhumanity.

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

This is perhaps a poor analogy but, how many times was it said during the Iraq War that winning the battle was meaningless if the hearts and minds of the people couldn’t be won. And that’s kind of what I feel like here – it’s one thing to beat down a bigot through force, quite another to change the mind of his followers and thereby make him irrelevant. So, there are those who want to shout down Fred Phelps and show their hatred for the man, and I suppose that has its place. But I rather like the fact that other than his brainwashed family members, he really has no support from anyone. He is a caricature, someone who is generally pitied by all of society who sits back and watches hate envelope and destroy him. And in many ways, the same thing was true of Helms. He will never be remembered for any of the miniscule good that he did, so don’t sweat it. He will always be remembered for the bigot he was. Of this, I have no doubt.

Yes. I'm not suggesting a shouting match, I'm suggesting that the emotional triggers result in the taking of a positive step in the creative deconstruction or destruction of the ideology of inhumanity.

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

There are two fronts to this ongoing battle against discrimination. One is to take on the truly vile in our society and the other is to engage in all of those who don’t act out of hatred but out of fear and ignorance. And while hatred may have its place for the former, it simply isn’t effective for the latter. So I will let those who want to destroy the evil-doers of society have at it with little complaint from me. But I would like to think that I am doing my part as well, every time I am able to get someone to reexamine their position. And for what I’m trying to do, hate simply doesn’t work.

You are doing your part. And I think that I can probably tone down my rhetoric, but the message is what we all agree on:

Inhumanity must be confronted and vanquished through education, dialogue and understanding...and the occaisonal Kwai Chiang Cain slow motion kick to the head.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Boss Radio

Yes, bigotry is fear and ignorance and MUST be confronted head-on. How come Don Imus' nappy headed hos was so terrible and shocking that he lost his lame-ass DJ job, and Helms was wandering around Congress saying far worse things every day, affecting legislation that affects you and me?

I actually don't think that Helms could have gotten away with those remarks today. I do actually think we are making progress. Take a look at George Allen, the former Republican senator from Virginia. Even in a place as conservative as Virginia, his comments didn't fly. He lost his seat and his Presidential aspirations, all with one uttering of a racial slur.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by Boss Radio

I'm not suggesting a shouting match, I'm suggesting that the emotional triggers result in the taking of a positive step in the creative deconstruction or destruction of the ideology of inhumanity.

Which is actually also what we are suggesting!