Ta Ta Jesse Helms

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by Boss Radio

And did I mention I HATE all organized religion?

Enter derail...

You're welcome to that opinion. And my opinion is that a great deal of negative effect can come from people who are overly dogmatic, particularly to the point of believing everyone else is wrong, wrong, wrong. And particularly if they feel compelled to evangelize in a violent fashion, i.e. war. But on the other hand, I have seen religion do some very positive things for people. So while I have major problems with what people sometimes DO with religion, I don't think that spirituality - even organized, shared spirituality - is not a bad thing in and of itself, when used for connection, peace and emotional strength - and not for harm. (So please don't lump us all together like that.)

But then, I've the same problem with evangelical atheists that I have with evangelical Christians. What works for one person is simply that - what works for ONE PERSON. I don't really care what you believe, so long as in your actions and thoughts, you're not bringing harm to others.

[mousepod]

I LOVE BossRadio's post!

One of the most important lessons I've learned over the last couple of decades is that it's perfectly fine to have "negative" feelings - as long as you recognize them and express them in a useful way. While I absolutely agree with LSPE that holding onto hate is a bad and dangerous thing, I would argue that it's even more dangerous to deny anger. Because it's real. And, unchecked, it can grow and become malevolent.

The fact that this argument is in a thread about Jesse Helms is what makes it interesting for me. Because, to many, Helms was a symbol of the worst that this country has to offer. A symbol. I don't look at his death as the death of a man, because I never knew him as a man. His death represents something - a silencing of a singularly hateful voice. And I rejoice at that. I feel no hatred, no anger - just relief. If his worldview was right, he's in heaven. Good for him.

When I heard that Tony Snow died, I felt none of the feelings that I felt when Helms died. Politically, I agreed with almost none of the beliefs that Snow espoused. As a mouthpiece of GWB, I hated him. But he was a man who didn't preach hate - he talked politics. And when I learned of his passing today, I felt sad. I didn't know him personally, of course. But I understood that during his life, he strove to make the world a better place - he just used a different blueprint than I would have used. Tony was the kind of person I would have liked to educate. To me, Helms was never a person. Helms was a bad idea made flesh. And the death of a bad idea is a good thing.

Rest in Peace, Tony Snow.

[Boss Radio]

Originally Posted by mousepod

I LOVE BossRadio's post!

One of the most important lessons I've learned over the last couple of decades is that it's perfectly fine to have "negative" feelings - as long as you recognize them and express them in a useful way. While I absolutely agree with LSPE that holding onto hate is a bad and dangerous thing, I would argue that it's even more dangerous to deny anger. Because it's real. And, unchecked, it can grow and become malevolent.

The fact that this argument is in a thread about Jesse Helms is what makes it interesting for me. Because, to many, Helms was a symbol of the worst that this country has to offer. A symbol. I don't look at his death as the death of a man, because I never knew him as a man. His death represents something - a silencing of a singularly hateful voice. And I rejoice at that. I feel no hatred, no anger - just relief. If his worldview was right, he's in heaven. Good for him.

I tried to mojo you, but I got killed at the gate.
This has become a lively discussion, and it's really fascinating to see so many viewpoints on this obviously resonant topic.
I agree with you, sir.

[JWBear]

Hate and anger are two different emotions.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by JWBear

Hate and anger are two different emotions.

Hear, hear! I've been saying again and again that I'm angry at the man! I would never ask that anyone deny anger. I think Boss is right - this is a matter of semantics.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Boss Radio

[Not Afraid]

Boss Radio and MousePod are completely and wonderfully RIGHT ON!

I am incapable of loving everyone as I am incapable to loving every one. I once thought it would be admirable of me to profess love and respect for all humankind until I realized I was lying to myself. I was denying myself important emotions that, left suppressed, were causing more harm than the simple expression of them.

I cannot respect everyone. I hold no one in any sort of esteme that spews forth the type of hatred that Helms did throughout his lifetime. To respect them means I hold them in some sort of regard, that I appreciate them in some way. Helms is someone I hold absolutely no regard for and he has done nothing for the world that I can show any amount of appreciation for. I accept the fact that he was an ignorant, hate-filled moron, but I also accept that fact that it was his choice to be that way. I didn't know the man personally, I can only respond to the choices his made in his life, and, as a result, I cannot respect him in any way. Saying that I can respect his beliefs in any way is giving his brand of hatred a green light in my opinion.

[Alex]

As H.L. Mencken said "we must respect the other fellows religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."

Respecting the privilege to hold ideas is not the same as given any respect to the validity of those ideas.

I have no problem at all using the moment of somebody's death to remind the world of their failures. When George Lucas goes the general coverage will be hagiographic and I'll be in some corner being scorned for reminding people that he didn't directly oversee a good movie after 1983. When Pope John Paul II died, I could acknowledge that in addition to be a huge malignancy in the world he also did many good things.

Yes, there is a place for respect and to an extent that has to do with who you're talking to. Here among us is one thing, if Jesse Helms granddaughter happened to be a member here we'd all treat the subject differently. And I didn't go out of my way to share my views of the pope with my Catholic friends. Honesty in personal expression is one thing, intruding on the grief of others is just rude.

But there is, in my opinion, a difference not just of degree but in type between resisting the surge of whitewashing that happens when someone dies with feeling personal pleasure that someone has died. Yes, sometimes the only way for a bad person's influence to end is through their death but all I really care about is the end of the influence and take no joy from the death. In this case, I am of the opinion that Helms's power of significant influence ended years ago and to the extent it still existed it didn't end with his death.

But yes, if compelled to comment on Helms's I'd say he was a colossal ass. The people of North Carolina were collosal asses in electing him 5 times, and his colleagues in Congress were collosal asses in allowing him to hold such sway over their proceedings.

In the end I don't care about the semantical differences (GC can pause here for the feeling of shock to pass) of "hate" vs. "disgust" vs. "anger." It is the same as asking if you and I both see "red" the same.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

At the danger of repeating myself, I don't respect Helms or appreciate anything he's done. I've never asked anyone else to show him respect. I don't begrudge anyone from reacting to his death in any way. And I encourage being inspired by the ill someone does and use that inspiration to do good. I don't really understand why people seem to think what I'm saying is bad or flawed, because all I've been trying to say is that we need to break through the walls of bigotry, and that I worry that the way we choose to do that sometimes makes us unable to do that.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick

At the danger of repeating myself, I don't respect Helms or appreciate anything he's done. I've never asked anyone else to show him respect. I don't begrudge anyone from reacting to his death in any way. And I encourage being inspired by the ill someone does and use that inspiration to do good. I don't really understand why people seem to think what I'm saying is bad or flawed, because all I've been trying to say is that we need to break through the walls of bigotry, and that I worry that the way we choose to do that sometimes makes us unable to do that.

Ditto.