Ta Ta Jesse Helms

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by Boss Radio

And did I mention I HATE all organized religion?

Enter derail...

You're welcome to that opinion. And my opinion is that a great deal of negative effect can come from people who are overly dogmatic, particularly to the point of believing everyone else is wrong, wrong, wrong. And particularly if they feel compelled to evangelize in a violent fashion, i.e. war. But on the other hand, I have seen religion do some very positive things for people. So while I have major problems with what people sometimes DO with religion, I don't think that spirituality - even organized, shared spirituality - is not a bad thing in and of itself, when used for connection, peace and emotional strength - and not for harm. (So please don't lump us all together like that.)

But then, I've the same problem with evangelical atheists that I have with evangelical Christians. What works for one person is simply that - what works for ONE PERSON. I don't really care what you believe, so long as in your actions and thoughts, you're not bringing harm to others.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by JWBear

Sorry, I have none of those feeling towards Jesse Helms. Again, you assume feelings that do not exist.

And again, with all due respect, you assume that my comments are directed at you specifically. They aren't. As I said, perhaps you don't harbor any of this hatred, but there are plenty of people that do. Not necessarily in this thread even, but in general. That's what I'm trying to address.

[Boss Radio]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

Interesting discussion and lots of food for thought there, Boss Radio.

I think we can all agree that everyone hated what Helms stood for. So, there’s no disagreement there. In fact, I would say that it is unanimous in this thread. And, for the record I don’t think there is anything particularly wrong with hating inanimate objects. I pretty much hate mint ice cream with all my soul. But I think the line gets a little blurry than some might want to admit when it comes to Helms. People are quick to say that they didn’t hate the man but they hated everything he stood for. But calling him every name in the book isn’t really an attack on his positions, it is an expression of hatred for the man. And I’m not going to say that someone isn’t entitled to that opinion, that he was an evil, vile man. But that simply isn’t how I choose to focus my energy.

Calling a bigot a bigot is ok. Calling a racist homophobe a racist homophobe is ok. That's what he was.

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

I don’t avoid hatred of people in an attempt to be more Christ-like, I do it because I don’t think that anything positive comes from it in my life. I don’t think it brings us any closer to the goal of equality for all people. In fact, I think it separates more than it brings together. I think bigotry is more often the result of fear and ignorance than it is actual hatred. And fear and ignorance can often be combated more successfully through respectful dialog. Sure, someone who truly hates black people or gays isn’t going to change through dialog, but what about all those other people who are simply following what they were taught by their parents or their church, or those who simply fear what they don’t understand.

Yes, bigotry is fear and ignorance and MUST be confronted head-on. How come Don Imus' nappy headed hos was so terrible and shocking that he lost his lame-ass DJ job, and Helms was wandering around Congress saying far worse things every day, affecting legislation that affects you and me?

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

I always found it interesting that when I would come out to a friend I had known for a long time, they always had a million questions. And I think that stems from the fact that they had never really known someone who was gay on a personal level before. And usually after we spent some time talking, they came to the understanding that nothing had changed, that I was the same person that I always was. And they were forced to confront some of these long-held misconceptions they had, this certainty that gay people were sooo different from them. Turns out, we have far more in common than differences. Imagine that.

You're a very nice, thoughtful and kind person...and someone I'm proud to be friends with. You probably weren't hanging out with people who would lynch you.

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

And so, when I’m confronted by someone who holds on to this ignorance and fear, I always see an opportunity to try and change their perspective. But I’m sure not going to do it through name calling and telling them they are horrible people for believing what they do. And if I let anger or hatred take control of me, we simply cannot communicate effectively with each other. My method works, I’ve seen it work. It does not work on someone filled with hatred, however, because there is no desire to understand the other side. And if I were filled with hate and anger, I would have little desire to understand the other side either. That’s why I think that hatred can be more of a hindrance than an asset.

In the ongoing war of ideas, all options must be left on the table. I'm not saying make decisions based on hate and anger, but don't discount the emotions you feel when you are met with injustice, prejudice and inhumanity.
It's ok to hate inhumanity.

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

This is perhaps a poor analogy but, how many times was it said during the Iraq War that winning the battle was meaningless if the hearts and minds of the people couldn’t be won. And that’s kind of what I feel like here – it’s one thing to beat down a bigot through force, quite another to change the mind of his followers and thereby make him irrelevant. So, there are those who want to shout down Fred Phelps and show their hatred for the man, and I suppose that has its place. But I rather like the fact that other than his brainwashed family members, he really has no support from anyone. He is a caricature, someone who is generally pitied by all of society who sits back and watches hate envelope and destroy him. And in many ways, the same thing was true of Helms. He will never be remembered for any of the miniscule good that he did, so don’t sweat it. He will always be remembered for the bigot he was. Of this, I have no doubt.

Yes. I'm not suggesting a shouting match, I'm suggesting that the emotional triggers result in the taking of a positive step in the creative deconstruction or destruction of the ideology of inhumanity.

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

There are two fronts to this ongoing battle against discrimination. One is to take on the truly vile in our society and the other is to engage in all of those who don’t act out of hatred but out of fear and ignorance. And while hatred may have its place for the former, it simply isn’t effective for the latter. So I will let those who want to destroy the evil-doers of society have at it with little complaint from me. But I would like to think that I am doing my part as well, every time I am able to get someone to reexamine their position. And for what I’m trying to do, hate simply doesn’t work.

You are doing your part. And I think that I can probably tone down my rhetoric, but the message is what we all agree on:

Inhumanity must be confronted and vanquished through education, dialogue and understanding...and the occaisonal Kwai Chiang Cain slow motion kick to the head.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Boss Radio

Yes, bigotry is fear and ignorance and MUST be confronted head-on. How come Don Imus' nappy headed hos was so terrible and shocking that he lost his lame-ass DJ job, and Helms was wandering around Congress saying far worse things every day, affecting legislation that affects you and me?

I actually don't think that Helms could have gotten away with those remarks today. I do actually think we are making progress. Take a look at George Allen, the former Republican senator from Virginia. Even in a place as conservative as Virginia, his comments didn't fly. He lost his seat and his Presidential aspirations, all with one uttering of a racial slur.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Boss Radio

Beautifully, eloquently stated. And certainly words to which we all aspire.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick

Enter derail...

You're welcome to that opinion. And my opinion is that a great deal of negative effect can come from people who are overly dogmatic, particularly to the point of believing everyone else is wrong, wrong, wrong. And particularly if they feel compelled to evangelize in a violent fashion, i.e. war. But on the other hand, I have seen religion do some very positive things for people. So while I have major problems with what people sometimes DO with religion, I don't think that spirituality - even organized, shared spirituality - is not a bad thing in and of itself, when used for connection, peace and emotional strength - and not for harm. (So please don't lump us all together like that.)

But then, I've the same problem with evangelical atheists that I have with evangelical Christians. What works for one person is simply that - what works for ONE PERSON. I don't really care what you believe, so long as in your actions and thoughts, you're not bringing harm to others.

Not a derail at all, imo. It's perfectly Germane to where the discussion has gone. I have been accused, in the past, of being a hater of Christianity because I speak out against the actions of some Christians. I have met many, many fine people in my life; Some where religious, some where not. I've also encountered many who are not so good. Again; Some where religious, some where not. I couldn't care less what religion someone does, or does not, belong to. Belonging to a certain religion does not automatically make you a good person; just as non-belief doesn't automatically make you a bad person.

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

And again, with all due respect, you assume that my comments are directed at you specifically. They aren't. As I said, perhaps you don't harbor any of this hatred, but there are plenty of people that do. Not necessarily in this thread even, but in general. That's what I'm trying to address.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

I actually don't think that Helms could have gotten away with those remarks today. I do actually think we are making progress. Take a look at George Allen, the former Republican senator from Virginia. Even in a place as conservative as Virginia, his comments didn't fly. He lost his seat and his Presidential aspirations, all with one uttering of a racial slur.

I certainly hope you are correct.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by Boss Radio

I'm not suggesting a shouting match, I'm suggesting that the emotional triggers result in the taking of a positive step in the creative deconstruction or destruction of the ideology of inhumanity.

Which is actually also what we are suggesting!

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Boss Radio

[Not Afraid]

Boss Radio and MousePod are completely and wonderfully RIGHT ON!

I am incapable of loving everyone as I am incapable to loving every one. I once thought it would be admirable of me to profess love and respect for all humankind until I realized I was lying to myself. I was denying myself important emotions that, left suppressed, were causing more harm than the simple expression of them.

I cannot respect everyone. I hold no one in any sort of esteme that spews forth the type of hatred that Helms did throughout his lifetime. To respect them means I hold them in some sort of regard, that I appreciate them in some way. Helms is someone I hold absolutely no regard for and he has done nothing for the world that I can show any amount of appreciation for. I accept the fact that he was an ignorant, hate-filled moron, but I also accept that fact that it was his choice to be that way. I didn't know the man personally, I can only respond to the choices his made in his life, and, as a result, I cannot respect him in any way. Saying that I can respect his beliefs in any way is giving his brand of hatred a green light in my opinion.

[Alex]

As H.L. Mencken said "we must respect the other fellows religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."

Respecting the privilege to hold ideas is not the same as given any respect to the validity of those ideas.

I have no problem at all using the moment of somebody's death to remind the world of their failures. When George Lucas goes the general coverage will be hagiographic and I'll be in some corner being scorned for reminding people that he didn't directly oversee a good movie after 1983. When Pope John Paul II died, I could acknowledge that in addition to be a huge malignancy in the world he also did many good things.

Yes, there is a place for respect and to an extent that has to do with who you're talking to. Here among us is one thing, if Jesse Helms granddaughter happened to be a member here we'd all treat the subject differently. And I didn't go out of my way to share my views of the pope with my Catholic friends. Honesty in personal expression is one thing, intruding on the grief of others is just rude.

But there is, in my opinion, a difference not just of degree but in type between resisting the surge of whitewashing that happens when someone dies with feeling personal pleasure that someone has died. Yes, sometimes the only way for a bad person's influence to end is through their death but all I really care about is the end of the influence and take no joy from the death. In this case, I am of the opinion that Helms's power of significant influence ended years ago and to the extent it still existed it didn't end with his death.

But yes, if compelled to comment on Helms's I'd say he was a colossal ass. The people of North Carolina were collosal asses in electing him 5 times, and his colleagues in Congress were collosal asses in allowing him to hold such sway over their proceedings.

In the end I don't care about the semantical differences (GC can pause here for the feeling of shock to pass) of "hate" vs. "disgust" vs. "anger." It is the same as asking if you and I both see "red" the same.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

At the danger of repeating myself, I don't respect Helms or appreciate anything he's done. I've never asked anyone else to show him respect. I don't begrudge anyone from reacting to his death in any way. And I encourage being inspired by the ill someone does and use that inspiration to do good. I don't really understand why people seem to think what I'm saying is bad or flawed, because all I've been trying to say is that we need to break through the walls of bigotry, and that I worry that the way we choose to do that sometimes makes us unable to do that.