War is peace

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Every attempt at this kind of regime change necessitating the rebuilding of police and military forces, has ended in failure. There's not a single example of success. I'm not holding my breath on this one.

Ummm.....Germany and Japan and Italy? Granted the start was a bit different, but everything had to be redone - military and police forces included. They seem pretty stable to me now, though they certainly weren't for quite a while.

[Name]

seems I have learnt somewhere that those that fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it......


Not to mention the Einstein(I think) definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over with the expectation of a different result.

Hrmm, how many more times are we going to repeat this obviously futile attempt to change the governments of other countries.

[sleepyjeff]

Wow...so much to respond to I don't know where to begin.

1) re: Loss of little freedoms to be more secure. How about loss of little freedoms to save ourselves from a loss of big freedoms. Here is what I mean. Lets say Someone like Dean(not Clinton or Gore because I honestly believe they would have reacted similar to Bush) was President when 9-11 occured. Lets say not a single inconveince was inacted upon the American public. Lets say this emboldened Osama or one of his fans to act again. Lets say this time tens of thousands were killed..........would it be a stretch to say that the new measures put in place after something 10 times bigger then 9-11 would be much, much more invonvenient and our loss of freedoms would not be just faintly noticed(or imagined) but in our faces real?

2)re: Cops on every street corner. Tokyo has em on every corner and I don't hear anybody complaining about the lack of freedom there(except maybe would be criminals)

3)re: Fighting Iraq to remove a secular government only to replace it with a Islamic one. We fought Iraq to remove a dictator who signed a cease fire agreement with us then broke it repeatedly.......we even did the Parental equivalent of counting by fractions....ok Sadaam you have 3 seconds 1, 2, 2.5, 2.75, 2.81, 2.9, 2.95, 2.99, 2.995.....I mean c'mon. We would have never been taken seriously again by any world leader if we didn't go in.

4)re: Retreating. Isn't that what the French do?

[Name]

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff

2)re: Cops on every street corner. Tokyo has em on every corner and I don't hear anybody complaining about the lack of freedom there(except maybe would be criminals)

I kinda like the cameras everywhere(public) idea, but not monitored by the police, but monitored by the people(read it somewhere). I, for one, would like the ability to take my personal security in my own hands in such a way.

[sleepyjeff]

Originally Posted by Name

I kinda like the cameras everywhere(public) idea, but not monitored by the police, but monitored by the people(read it somewhere). I, for one, would like the ability to take my personal security in my own hands in such a way.

That's not a bad idea...........

My shop is next to a place that rents Hot Tubs(open air) by the hour......he has cameras everywhere. Not to spy on the hot tubbers but to make sure no one is spying or filming them. Cameras defending against cameras

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff

Lets say not a single inconveince was inacted upon the American public. Lets say this emboldened Osama or one of his fans to act again.

This assumes that Osama and his fans are scared by our lame-ass tactics. It's been proven over and over that these systems suck. There have been tons of reports of people sneaking things into places on purpose to test the systems, and getting through.

The terrorists are not frightened of our pointless bag checks.

Retreating is what America did when they lost the Vietnam War after countless pointless deaths.

[sleepyjeff]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

This assumes that Osama and his fans are scared by our lame-ass tactics. It's been proven over and over that these systems suck. There have been tons of reports of people sneaking things into places on purpose to test the systems, and getting through.

The terrorists are not frightened of our pointless bag checks.

Retreating is what America did when they lost the Vietnam War after countless pointless deaths.

Very good point....there really is no proof that any of these systems have stopped anything.

I would not go as far as to call them lame though. The pathetic bag checks, the taking off of the shoes, etc are not really designed to really stop some one from sneaking something past.......they are designed to slow the flow of people and create an obstacle for a potential terroist. The bag checker will not be the one who catches the bad guy...it will be someone invisible watching from a ways away the behavior of those approaching the obstacle(bag check or what have you) We only see the hand that the security wants us(and the terrorist) to see....we don't see everything

[Name]

Retreating. Isn't that what the French do?

heh, and I have yet to hear of too many terrorist attacks occuring in France.

Interesting

[Not Afraid]

Originally Posted by Name

heh, and I have yet to hear of too many terrorist attacks occuring in France.

Interesting

I just adore the French.

[wendybeth]

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

I just adore the French.

Why, thank you.


Oh, you meant the France-French. What are we French-Americans, chopped goose liver?