Riding crop costumes go bye bye

[Cadaverous Pallor]

NOTE: I will use the word "attractive" to mean "the average society standard of attractiveness".

Originally Posted by Prudence

So, to recap:

Disneyland should only employ "hotties" because they're an entertainment business and society doesn't want to look at ugly people.

If you want I can start pulling up studies on attractive people getting better responses than less attractive people. I'll say it again, it's a fact of life. A sad one, but a fact nonetheless.

Fat people are, by definition, ugly. The corollary is that skinny people are presumed attractive, except under certain circumstances particular to the individual.

You say all this as if a) I made it up, b) that it's not true in our society. You just have to go to http://www.hotornot.com to find out exactly what the average (internet enabled) individual thinks is hot or not.

This definition is accepted and unquestioned because it has been granted by the great entity known as "society," and one should never question or try to change society. Rather, one should throw up one's hands and say "it's what society wants." (Note that this usually means "it's what I want," but most people lack sufficient spinal fortitude to admit this and would rather say it's society doing the judging.)

I'll say this AGAIN - I'm not saying that I agree with society's standards. Many of Hollywoods "ideals" are so not my thing. Many of them look like freaks of nature. What people are doing to their bodies with plastic surgery is horrifying, not to mention the high heels/panty hose/plucking/waxing/shaving/makeup/hair dye/manicure stuff. Sure, I do my share of all that, just like any other member of this society. Should I get all pissed if guys think that hairy pits are not sexy? A lot of what society dictates is stupid, but we either deal or get the consequences. I personally wish I didn't have to shave my legs or armpits but I conform, because showing up with shaggy legs in a skirt won't exactly fly at the workplace. I could yell "I'm beautiful even though I have hairy armpits!" but no one would listen to that.

As for me personally -- I'm not into pity "friendships." If I'm not good enough to serve you food or give you directions or process your complaint form or whatever, then why on earth would you want to interact with me socially?

iSm said it perfectly -

Originally Posted by iSm

I have many friends whom I love dearly, but would not hire for certain on-stage roles.

Sczcerbiak, I love you to death, and hate to see you beat yourself up like that. You are quite the handsome man and I'm sure that one day you'll find your knight in shining armor that will match you perfectly.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

I could yell "I'm beautiful even though I have hairy armpits!" but no one would listen to that.

Ah, Jenni-san. Don't think so small! What if, say, Martin Luther King Jr. had said "no one would listen"? Not to equate the civil rights movement with the armpit hair movement. But you know what I'm saying.

Besides, Paris has found the hairy armpits sexy for years now. You're just playing to the wrong audience.

[Alex]

I'm not sure how to say what I want to say. So I'll sum it up this way:

1. I, personally, am fat. Physically I am not attractive (to me) because of this.

2. Physically, other fat people are not attractive to me. This has little to do with the attractiveness of people I know because once actual social interaction begins, simple physical attractiveness is quickly swamped by many other elements that go into a whole person. But when I'm simply seeing a cast member at the park or my waiter at a restaurant, all there is is simple physical attractiveness. Fat is not to my liking in this regard. Further, if the person is thin, Asian, tall, large breasted, and has red hair then their attractiveness is greatly augmented for me. Physical attractiveness is a set of personal standards that can be expressed across populations within certain ranges. While these ranges vary over time and place, the ideal does tend towards the thinner side (from ancient statuary, the Venus de Milo was not considered ugly and David has no love handles).

3. Again, for emphasis, point 2 only really applies in purely physical interactions where the myriad of other personal factors can not come into play.

4. So, purely for selfish reasons, my preference would be that all non-character cast members at Disneyland be tall D-cup Asian women with red hair.

5. My purely selfish preferences should have nothing to do with Disneyland's hiring practices for non-character cast members and unless weight somehow limits ability, it should be a non-factor in hiring. I do not buy into the notion that non-character cast members are "casting." The standards of filmmaking no more apply to the cashier at the Emporium than they do at the McDonald's across the street.

6. I would like to see more diversity in some of the character and entertainment cast members as well, while we're at it. I would love to see a black or hispanic (or any other race/ethnicity) Cinderella standing out in front of the castle. This wouldn't bother me at all, any more than I'd be upset to find an Inuit playing skipper on the Jungle Cruise.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick

Ah, Jenni-san. Don't think so small! What if, say, Martin Luther King Jr. had said "no one would listen"? Not to equate the civil rights movement with the armpit hair movement. But you know what I'm saying.

Besides, Paris has found the hairy armpits sexy for years now. You're just playing to the wrong audience.

Heehee!

Hey, if someone stood up and became the MLK of perceived beauty, that would kick some serious ass.

[Prudence]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

You say all this as if a) I made it up, b) that it's not true in our society. You just have to go to http://www.hotornot.com to find out exactly what the average (internet enabled) individual thinks is hot or not.

And you, and some others, continue to miss the point. Understanding the status quo does not require one to accept the status quo. True, you're not fat so I guess it's not your fight. You have no reason not to be okay with the status quo.

And honestly -- it doesn't matter what you think of me. I have a husband who, for God only knows what reason, apparently loves and adores me -- blubber and all. I have a family that has every confidence in my future success. My friends, although few in number, are true blue to the end. I'll indulge in some rare confidence and assert that I am the smartest person I know. I can sign, dance, and play ragtime piano. I can knit, sew, and assemble Ikea furniture. And, perhaps most importantly, my cat thinks my lap is the best napping spot on the planet. I have nearly every blessing imaginable, but looks weren't included in the package.

What I try to keep out of my life are people who think that the way society treats me is just something to be accepted -- a throw the hands up in the air, what is one to do, can't fight it mentality. No one's required to fight my battles for me, but my friends and family do anyhow. That's what sets them apart.

As for this discussion, gee, you'll be my "friend" even though I'm fat? How magnanimous of you! You can wrap it up however you like, but it's still pity. My friends don't need to overlook my appearance in order to be my friend.

[Alex]

My friends don't need to overlook my appearance in order to be my friend.

But do they have to find you physically attractive to be your friend? When I'm friends with someone I find less than attractive physically, it is not despite this. Physical attraction plays no role in what I think of somebody as a friend and person, but simply in how likely I am to spend stray moments imagining them naked and in my bedroom.

I have many friends. I doubt many of them find me physically attractive. I don't think it is pity friendship. If I won the "let's be nice to the ugly guy" lottery, I didn't get my notification in the mail.

[Prudence]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

But do they have to find you physically attractive to be your friend? When I'm friends with someone I find less than attractive physically, it is not despite this. Physical attraction plays no role in what I think of somebody as a friend and person, but simply in how likely I am to spend stray moments imagining them naked and in my bedroom.

I have many friends. I doubt many of them find me physically attractive. I don't think it is pity friendship. If I won the "let's be nice to the ugly guy" lottery, I didn't get my notification in the mail.

I don't consider a single one of my friends ugly. None of them are. They're my friends. How could they possibly be ugly?

There's a fine distinction here I'm apparently failing to make. That frustrates me, because it is very important to me.

I'm not saying that to be my friend one has to spend their every ounce of energy resisting the urge to grab me for some hot monkey love. But if they truly find me so visually repulsive that they would nod and agree that I'm downright ugly then I can't imagine why they would want to spend any time with me at all. And if they think that there are things I shouldn't do or places I shouldn't go because of how I look, then I don't want to spend time with them.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by Prudence

I don't consider a single one of my friends ugly. None of them are. They're my friends. How could they possibly be ugly?

There's a fine distinction here I'm apparently failing to make. That frustrates me, because it is very important to me.

I'm not saying that to be my friend one has to spend their every ounce of energy resisting the urge to grab me for some hot monkey love. But if they truly find me so visually repulsive that they would nod and agree that I'm downright ugly then I can't imagine why they would want to spend any time with me at all. And if they think that there are things I shouldn't do or places I shouldn't go because of how I look, then I don't want to spend time with them.

I think I'm beginning to understand...you're talking about "downright ugly" instead of "I'm not attracted to them."

I agree with you, I don't know anyone that's "downright ugly". But that doesn't mean that I'd sleep with them, either. There are shades of gray, and the matter of personal preference. I may not find them personally attractive to me, but I can see how they are attractive to others.

That's the difference. I can accept that to me, not everyone is beautiful, but that they are beautiful to other people.

[Alex]

Well, I disagree. I have several friends and acquaintances I consider physically ugly.

But you also seem to be assuming the worst and equating any instance of "unattractive" as code for "vomit inducingly ugly."

How a person looks has absolutely nothing to do with whether I want to be their friend. And whether someone is my friend has little to do with whether I find them attractive.

Now, hopefully whether I find someone physically attractive has little to do with how I treat them as a person (unless trying to bed them is how I'm currently treating them). I agree with you on that point. But I disagree with you in that I don't see any disconnect between being friends with someone and finding them unattractive or even ugly (physically).

I had a friend in high school who had been in a fire as an infant. He was scarred and malformed over most of his body. There is no denying that he was physically ugly. But he was also a great person and a great friend. I use this as an extreme example not to equate fatness with full body burn scars.

[BarTopDancer]

Originally Posted by Prudence

I'll indulge in some rare confidence and assert that I am the smartest person I know. SNIP and assemble Ikea furniture.

You can assemble IKEA furniture! You are a genius!