Could you forgive someone who shot you?

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Could the physics of your brain have been saying "SPIN JUST TWICE" but something in your "animated spirit" said "AWAY SILLY PHYSICS, I'M SPINNING THREE TIMES!!!" Everybody will perceive the latter and most will also believe it to be the truth.

The electro-mechanics of my brain waves are the silly physics, but the decision to stop at 2, 3, or 14 zillion are free will.

My car moves forward because of the physics of internal combustion (and a host of other scientific relationships and principles), but it took my choice and personal action of stepping on the accelerator to start the process.

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

If I tell you to spin in circles and then stop...

Actually, MY free will would have told you to go fly a kite

[BarTopDancer]

Originally Posted by Alex

If I tell you to spin in circles and then stop...

Originally Posted by kevy

Actually, MY free will would have told you to go fly a kite

Unless it was during MA...

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

This is why free will is pretty much an idea outside of determination. A universe in which it exists and a universe in which it doesn't are essentially indistinguishable. Because you can't tell the difference between someone doing something because they "free willed" it and someone doing it because chemistry required it. Similarly with the opposite.

Just the metaphysical description of universe change. Read the links I posted above, Scott Adams pretty wells sums up where I'm coming from.

Ok, I read a great deal of the links (not all, they were quite long). I don't necessarily agree with the conclusion he draws, but it's very very interesting stuff. It reminds me of the movie What the #(*$&% Do We Know. In part of the movie they talk about people being addicted to certain emotions, as each emotion has a certain brain chemical related to it. These people sub-conciously put themselves in the same situations over and over to satisfy their need for that chemical.

If anyone hasn't seen that movie, I highly recommend it. You want find a more entertaining movie about quantum physics.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

Um, unless I am stupid or completely missing something, this statement makes zero sense. If free will is about making personal choices, how is making a personal choice not free will? How is looking at the options, weighing the outcome and making a decision based on the available information limiting?

To expand a bit on Alex's response, the essential idea is that given the exact same scenario, the exact same inputs, and exact same state of your brian, "you" (by "you" I mean the collective results of what you perceive as your mental processes) will "choose" the same thing every time. Of course, due to the complexity involved, it's impossible to come anywhere remotely close to the "exact same" situation (it would require every atom to be in the very same state), so it's impossible to recognize.

Actually, now that I menition it, to dispute something Alex said earlier, a computer's random number generator is NOT truly random. It's based on an ever-changing "seed" number (usually tied to the computere's internal clock), but it's a deterministic algorithm. But because the initial input changes every time, it APPEARS sufficiently random. So if you could reproduce the same input conditions on the same hardware, you will deterministically get the same result. And if you could reproduce the same real-world conditions on an unchanged bit of brain hardware (again, impossible), you'd get the same result.

Or, to look at it another way, where does this "want" come from? I'd suspect most people would be comfortable with an answer along the lines of it's the end product of your life's experiences as processed and stored by your brain. Well, your brain is a physical entity made up of atoms. So, as Alex said, unless something happens to such a collection of atoms that transcends physics, what you "want" is the result of mechanical physical action.

[€uroMeinke]

I concede that Free Will may not be verifiable through scientific experiment, but as a phenomenologist at heart, I'll accept my perception of it as good enough. Like wise, I will hold others responsible for their actions.

For me it starts with Descart - I think therefore I am. It's my personal consciousness that is evidence enough for me and the fact that I learn over time what in my environment I have control over and what I do not. Thus I can throw a ball but not my automobile. I'm not sure learning makes any sense without free will, or what I can't experience what others are experienceing or what a rock is experiencing.

What is consciousness if not free will?

[MouseWife]

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick

Also, and I meant to say this before:

If someone who shot me mistook me for a quail, I'd forgive him, but I'd demand his resignation from public office.

[MouseWife]

I think it does make a difference if it were done on purpose or not. But, again, like others have said, it would be a day to day emotion. Maybe even a morning to night getting through it.

In this case, I think she has learned forgiveness BUT also, she was only 2 when it happened, it is quite true she doesn't know exactly what was taken from her. But, for her to have the positive attitutude that someone didn't do this to her on purpose {helping her to get over her anger} she might be better able to move on and find out what she is capable of doing in her situation.

I know it's been said that forgiveness has nothing to do with the punishment given, but, I would hope that the judge would take the persons history in to account also. There are people who do things and when they get caught or something happens they say 'It was an accident' 'I never meant for that to happen' 'I would never hurt anyone'. I would hope that people don't let someone like this get over being punished.

Do you remember the man who set the fire here in San Diego {up in the hills} because he was lost? All of the damage and all of the people who died? He really f'd up. It wasn't deliberate. There are people who forgive him and those who don't. Of course he never meant for any of that to happen. THAT is a horrible case, too. He may have forgiveness from some but he will always have to live with how his mistake cost so much to so many.

[innerSpaceman]

This is a very interesting discussion, but some of you people are just frelling crazy.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

This is a very interesting discussion, but some of you people are just frelling crazy.

What... you're just now figuring that out?!?

[Prudence]

I'm not crazy, and neither is my invisible friend, Mr. Pickles.