Do you believe in God?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Rather, it was the legitimate question of why can't we yet be Frankenstein, creating life in the lab? Perhaps billions of years are necessary for random lifelikeness to arise ... but why should it take that long if purpose is behind it?

You ARE aware that you can mail-order synthetic strands of DNA, of any sequence you'd like, right? And that scientists have already created a virus from said synthetic DNA?

[Frogberto]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

But what if God is not the designer, but rather the creation designs itself? What if the meaning of man being created in the image of God does not mean the flowing white beard, but rather the power of creation?

Everything in the universe connected by via an intricate web of energy, interacting and influencing ... with the thoughts and words and actions of every living thing having an effect on the universe.

Heheh, if humans are involved in the design of things, can there be any wonder that the design has so much waste and poor craftsmanship?


I'm not saying any of this has to do with the evolution of biology, per se. But the same forces that affect the universe through our thoughts and words and deeds were acting long before humans existed. If "GOD" set things in motion, with the details determined by GOD's "partners" in creation ... every star and atom and rock and creature ... it would account for some of the haphazardness in a design, but not deny the existence of a design.


Frogberto makes some excellent points about considering the downsides and the upsides of the 'design' question. But when RStar made that comment about man's inability to create a seed, I don't think it was to be taken literally as a "seed." Rather, it was the legitimate question of why can't we yet be Frankenstein, creating life in the lab? Perhaps billions of years are necessary for random lifelikeness to arise ... but why should it take that long if purpose is behind it?


There are no good answers, but obviously plenty of really fasctinating questions.

For myself, I am encouraged that man's explorations into quantum physics lean more and more toward evidencing the universe of metaphysics which is the underpinning of my spiritual philosophy. Namely, that we are indeed made in the image of GOD ... we have the power to create, and we are - all of us - doing so, whether consciously or not - with every thought and word and action. The universe is made by us.

I'd say, for one thing, to make sure you're not getting all of your science from "What the @$@#% do we know?". If your premise is that quantum mechanics proves a conscious observer is necessary to create reality, with a conclusion that we literally create reality with our thoughts, that conclusion is wrong.

Unfortunately the theory of quantum mechanics does not say anything of the sort, and most people are confusing the theory of quantum mechanics with an interpretation of quantum mechanics. Extrapolating to “we literally create reality by out thoughts” is applying reductionism to an absurd level.

David Albert, a professor from the Columbia University physics department, is quoted in Salon.com saying:

"I am, indeed, profoundly unsympathetic to attempts at linking quantum mechanics with consciousness. "

And here's the thing: Quantum mechanics has nothing to do with metaphysics, or religion, or mystal thinking on consciousness. I am reminded of Richard Feynman’s famous quote, "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics".

Quantum mechanics is not telling us this is the way the universe necessarily is, and it certainly doesn't allow us to "make our own reality" -- in fact, even with observation as a component, an electron, or quark - or any other piece of matter, only spins, or decays, in accordance with probability. It doesn't "do whatever you like" by creating a new reality, at all.

[alphabassettgrrl]

Excellent post, ISM.

Personally. I believe we co-create our universe though I am unclear on the details. I like how Einstein put it, something about that which is out there, we call god.

I'm an animist- I see god in rocks, dirt, and flies. Among other things. Everything to me has a soul. Not like the movie-version of soul as having a personality and a name and a specific existance after death, but an energy signature. Everything has it.

The tooth fairy and Santa and all? I caught my folks bringing the Santa presents in from the car one night and I got it. The Easter bunny scavenger hunt notes were in my dad's very distinctive handwriting. I guess we knew, but we didn't think about it, nor did we care. It was a fun game. I still believe in Santa as the spirit of the winter holidays.

My practice? I'm a pagan. I follow a relatively typical course, if there is such a thing. It informs my universe and is a way it all makes sense to me. More than that, I don't need.

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

But what if God is not the designer, but rather the creation designs itself? What if the meaning of man being created in the image of God does not mean the flowing white beard, but rather the power of creation?

Everything in the universe connected by via an intricate web of energy, interacting and influencing ... with the thoughts and words and actions of every living thing having an effect on the universe.
...
For myself, I am encouraged that man's explorations into quantum physics lean more and more toward evidencing the universe of metaphysics which is the underpinning of my spiritual philosophy. Namely, that we are indeed made in the image of GOD ... we have the power to create, and we are - all of us - doing so, whether consciously or not - with every thought and word and action. The universe is made by us.

[Frogberto]

Originally Posted by alphabassettgrrl

...Personally. I believe we co-create our universe though I am unclear on the details. I like how Einstein put it, something about that which is out there, we call god.

And yet Einstein was very clear that he followed the beliefs of Baruch Spinoza in defining "God" as the sum total of all the laws of the universe. In his famous 1948 letter to a U.S. Navy serviceman asking for a definition on his spiritual beliefs, he indicated that by all modern definitions, he would be an atheist.

[innerSpaceman]

No, I wasn't aware of that.











I'll take a dozen.

[Frogberto]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

No, I wasn't aware of that. I'll take a dozen.

In fact, all kinds of gene sequences can be made in the lab even RNA strands out of what is the massive amount of "junk dna" in every cell - which you would expect with evolution, but wouldn't be explained by a "designer".

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Sure, we evolved. But how did the goopy water get there in the first place?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick

Sure, we evolved. But how did the goopy water get there in the first place?

Thus my assertion that the only firm belief I have is that SOMETHING created this place. No matter how sciency you get, no matter how far back you get, the question remains, "Well, where did that come from?" Even the Big Bang leaves the question of where exactly that dense ball of gasses came from. Even in the multiple bang theory (i.e., the universe alternately expands and contracts forever), there's still no source for all of that expanding and contracting matter/energy.

[Frogberto]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Thus my assertion that the only firm belief I have is that SOMETHING created this place. No matter how sciency you get, no matter how far back you get, the question remains, "Well, where did that come from?" Even the Big Bang leaves the question of where exactly that dense ball of gasses came from. Even in the multiple bang theory (i.e., the universe alternately expands and contracts forever), there's still no source for all of that expanding and contracting matter/energy.

By, as Einstein and the theory of relativity shows, energy is always conserved. Either it forms as matter, or it's expressed as energy, but the total amount in the universe always remains the same -- it cannot by definition escape the universe.

So, if we truly have a cyclical universe, with an endless series of expansions and contractions, then you have no need for a creator, because there is nothing there to "create" -- the cycle would continue under the laws of physics backwards and forwards into infinity.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Frogberto

So, if we truly have a cyclical universe, with an endless series of expansions and contractions, then you have no need for a creator, because there is nothing there to "create" -- the cycle would continue under the laws of physics backwards and forwards into infinity.

You've misread my question. Where did the expanding and contracting energy come from? For that matter, where did the universe that contains this expanding and contracting energy come from? What's outside of it? More universes? Okay, where did those come from?