Is it bad that I agree with this?

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Instead, the solution, on a per-person basis, is to simply be aware. As long as you are cognizant of the fact that your choices, your likes and dislikes, are influenced by the culture and media around you, you stand a chance of taking control of it. There's no need to reject it if you understand it.

Moments like these, I find myeself envying your wife. As I've spent some time envying you her company, as well, I don't think there's anything wrong in saying so.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

Maybe it's because I'm not terribly hirsute, but the last thing I am concerned about is shaving/waxing/removing the hair from another part of my body. If I was an afro-bush woman, I may feel differently, but I see it now as another piece of up-keep I don't need to add to my life. My legs and armpits are enough to do. Add that to painting my toenails, keeping my fingernails filed, dying my hair and keeping sunscreen on my body and I'm done. Man, I've gotten lazy!

You think you're lazy? By comparison, I'm as groomed as a monkey.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Eliza Hodgkins 1812

Moments like these, I find myeself envying your wife. As I've spent some time envying you her company, as well, I don't think there's anything wrong in saying so.

To quote € from another thread...when's the next party?

[blueerica]

Indeed... I guess that I just couldn't agree more with GD on it. Just because it's a 'societal shift' or whatever or however you might or might not look at it, what I disagree with is the assertion that one side or the other is 'wrong.' I don't go around toting what I said earlier... but I guess I wanted to say why I did it.

And for the record, I don't like thongs. I don't like the way the look on me. The feel, meh... doesn't bother me to wear them, but if they're unflattering, why would I?

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'd also like to add that I regard pointed and total rejection of "social norms" about the same as I regard total adherance to social norms. Either way, one is letting themselves be defined by those norms. I much prefer to take the middle road, i.e. take from social norms what works and is useful for me, and "rebel against them" when it works and is useful for me.

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

I'd also like to add that I regard pointed and total rejection of "social norms" about the same as I regard total adherance to social norms. Either way, one is letting themselves be defined by those norms. I much prefer to take the middle road, i.e. take from social norms what works and is useful for me, and "rebel against them" when it works and is useful for me.

Indeed, I think of this as "developing your own style"

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

As GD points out, I would not limit the phenomenon to women. However, this thread started out with a discussion of women and appearance standards. I still submit that 1) underwear up the ass v. underwear not up the ass, 2) ass hanging out the top v. ass not hanging out the top and 3) pubic hair v. no pubic hair are fashion shifts of rather cosmic proportions, and I am curious about the cultural moment that birthed them. Was it Pamela Anderson getting her a****** waxed? Something else? Should the progenitors be haled as liberating pioneers a la Kinsey? Or is somebody out there having a good laugh?

If you really are curious about such things (and really are a woman - I admit I'm not sure on that count) you should try these things. I used to decry every one of the things you've mentioned, as well as bras, nylons, heels (of any height), shaving legs, wearing skirts. What a pain in the ass it is to be a woman, I thought.

Slowly but surely my tomboy past has been stripped away (heh) and I'm fully on the other side of the fence now. I do not do these things because it is expected of me - everyone who knows me knows that I do what the hell I want - I do them because I enjoy it.

I wear a thong sometimes because it makes me feel sexy and flatters me better in certain outfits. I shave my nethers because I tried it once and - shock of shocks! - liked how it let me feel everything during sex. I've done waxing and I really wish I could afford to continue it but it's just too expensive. Believe me Strangler, there's NO WAY IN HELL I'd go through the bother of keeping that trimmed just because someone else prefers it that way.

You can add me to the list of people that is rather annoyed when someone tries to tell me that I'm only doing these things because of societal pressures. Like has been said above by others, I'm pretty lazy, and it takes a lot to motivate me to do anything, never mind things like this.

Conversely, here's an example - I'm not into manicures at all and personally think I'd look ludicrous in long nails. Does this mean I have a huge problem with other people doing their thing? Jeez, I'd seriously have to get over myself if I thought I could tell other people what to do with their fingernails.

Low rise pants is an interesting case to me because it's just the latest in a long history of shockers. The miniskirt, tube top, Daisy Dukes, see-through blouses, go-go boots, stillettos, the bikini...eventually low rise jeans will either be humdrum or completely passe. I may as well start not caring now.

I understand about the struggle with kids and don't mean to trivialize that, but it's my feeling that EVERY generation has it's pressure to dress cool and the parents are always driven nuts by it.

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

If you really are curious about such things (and really are a woman - I admit I'm not sure on that count).

If I were a woman, my name would probably be the Fabulous Moolah.

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

Low rise pants is an interesting case to me because it's just the latest in a long history of shockers.

Yes and no. Every girl I've seen whose ass is hanging out of her pants, upon realizing that her ass is hanging out her pants and that someone is looking at it, has hiked her pants up and looked embarrassed. Whether it's hiking your pants up or endlessly tugging at your short short skirt, I don't see how feeling the need to wear something that makes you uneasy and vulnerable is a good thing.

As to the rest, thanks for the perspective.

[Not Afraid]

SL is most definitely NOT a woman. (Well, I've never really experienced his manhood in full flower, but I have seen enough tobe pretty damned sure, ) Maybe Chris can post some pics.

I think what bothers me about "this" brand of feminism is that there seems to be a patronizing attitude that I, as a women, can't take care of myself. Actually, I make my choices based on what I feel like doing and not what is fashionable nor what men "require".

I was raised on the "don't wear red lipstick because people will think you're a whore" school of thought (and it wasn't a man saying that to me, it was a woman) That obviously went over well with me. I go out of the house 90% of the time wearing nothing BUT red lipstick. And, if someone wants to think I'm a whore, then I hope they are entertained by that thought.

Same goes for a thong. It's MY choice to wear one and not one that's made by a man. If I feel sexy in my choice of clothing than that's a good thing for ME. If a man happens to think I'm hot as well, then that's an added bonus, but not a driving factor. I LIKE being sexy when I want to. It's good for my own confidence, self esteme and (ohh la la) libido.

If there were no men in the world (heaven forbid) I would probably do exactly the same things I do now. I'd just make the lesbians suffer.

PS: Low rise pants as fashion have come and gone through the years. Somewhere. there's a pic of be in white hip-hugger dittos.

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

SL is most definitely NOT a woman. (Well, I've never really experienced his manhood in full flower, but I have seen enough tobe pretty damned sure, ) Maybe Chris can post some pics. .

I am at a loss. Probably for the best.

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

Actually, I make my choices based on what I feel like doing and not what is fashionable nor what men "require".

Then you're a better man than I am. I work out to stay (okay, these days, get) healthy and feel good about the way I look to myself and my wife. However, having generally accepted fitness as a goal, I also do it to avoid having to compare myself unfavorably to other men.

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

PS: Low rise pants as fashion have come and gone through the years.

You're right. Undoubtedly the next trend will be bare breasted women in Fred Mertz pants with a prominent camel toe.