On Psalm 109 and Faith

[Gn2Dlnd]

Originally Posted by Gn2Dlnd

I would say that this practice is not exclusive to "fundies." If I were asked for proof, I'd point to this thread.



I said, "IF."

That just makes no sense. No sense at all.

[Morrigoon]

Originally Posted by Alex

Conversely, there's no honor in being good if you are only good because you fear the punishment if you're not. So either you can fool god by being good when you're really not and reap the rewards (in which case god is a bit of a fool) or god can separate the truly good from the not in which case the thread of eternal punishment is unnecessary (and god is just petty). (This is one thing I like from Jehovah's Witness theology: hell is simply eternal death. No painful punishment, just eternal non-existence. There was a very interesting This American Life story a couple years ago about a prominent megachurch evangelical preacher who removed hell from his theology and the rejection he faced for doing so.)

Say "you can do whatever you want without fear of punishment" then see who is good. In this regard, one could argue that me not being a murderer is more impressive than scaeagles not being a murderer. I have no fear of eternal damnation and still don't do it (we both face the same earthly justice system).

You say "being good when you're really not" but who we are is defined by our choices. Harry Potter is a Gryffindor, not a Slytherin, KWIM?

[Morrigoon]

Okay, wanna say a few things, forgive me for skipping around here, but:

On the topic of Jesus' sacrifice - You have to accept the sacrifice for it to do you any good. However, accepting the sacrifice means realizing that you believe in Jesus and what he says. What he says is "Go forth, and sin no more." So there IS a commandment to follow through with your "faith" in your future actions. In context, it's about your intent. We are still sinners, we will still sin, but we're supposed to try not to. If we really believe, then we believe that we're supposed to do what God wants us to do. Accepting the sacrifice is about committing, in your heart, to the faith, not JUST lip service.

On the topic of other religions:

There's a reason I consider myself a non-denominational Christian. I believe there are many paths to God, and that none of us have it exactly right, not even us Christians. In the end, I think what matters to God is that you believe in God, and that you make an effort to be a positive influence on the world around you. Since I accept the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross, I consider myself a Christian. But most of my personal religious belief has to do with a direct relationship with God. I do not buy into dogma, but rather look for underlying intent behind behavior. A good Muslim (and by that I mean the kind of folks who keep reminding us that Islam is a religion of peace, not the terrorists or other fanatical creeps that every religion seems to be plagued with (and in this sense I consider atheism a religion too), but the general, normal, GOOD people who have chosen a particular path to God), has just as good a chance of getting into the presence of God as I do, but he must follow his own path, unless life leads him to accept a different path. The differences in religions prove that religion has been too influenced by man, and is not purely of God, even if it's about or inspired by God. I think that it's arrogant of any man to believe he can truly understand everything about God, and therefore, no religion taught by men can possibly be 100% right. But that doesn't mean God doesn't exist or that there's no reason to be a good person. Each religion has some things it probably gets right, or close to right, and each religion has things it gets wrong.

Personally, my mind gets completely blown just trying to comprehend the vast infinity of the universe (eg: how can something possibly go on forever, existing with no beginning and no end, how did it come to be, was there anything before it, how could there not be, but if something existed before the universe, what? And if that's God, what existed before God that he came into existence?) I cannot scientifically prove infinity, and I cannot possibly understand it. I just accept it as the closest my little alligator brain can possibly wrap itself around, and is therefore all I'm probably meant to know about it. Same thing with God. We don't know everything about God. We're probably not meant to, it's way over our heads.

God feeds us the info we need in the way he feels we'll find most accessible. This is why I believe there are different religions in the world. He has provided many paths to his grace and gives us the freedom to find our way there. We also have the freedom to reject his insistence and make ourselves the center of our own universe, even if that takes them farther from him. And many say that in death you receive a greater measure of that which you desired in life. If you desired nearness to God, (eg: if you truly believed in your faith, and in God, and demonstrated that by doing good for the world like God wants you to), then you dwell in the presence of God for eternity. If you reject God, and do not desire his presence, then you will receive it, in abundance. That's why so many view hell as simply the absence of of God - cold and dark, not like the fire and brimstone with dancing devils and Satan and Saddam sharing a condo that we've seen portrayed.

So with that belief, how do I account for injustice or punishment for crimes?

Here's where my belief really diverges from any sort of dogmatic version of Christianity, and probably also isn't covered anywhere in the bible, it's just what I believe...

I feel we're all here with a purpose. Each person has their own purpose in this world. For some, it may be to perform a certain function in the operation of the world (eg: exist to parent someone so that that person may fulfill their purpose), for others, and perhaps for all, to learn something or teach something. I don't pretend to know why we might need to learn something, but I believe that God created this world for whatever his purpose might be, and we are sent here to do whatever it is we need to do. I think many of us go through life accomplishing our purpose without ever knowing what it was or when we've done it. This is how I explain the existence on this earth of a child who may live only a few days, hours or even minutes before departing this world. Their purpose may have been the effect that their death, or their existence at all, has on others. (The whole butterfly flaps its wings thing).

Hold on to your seats kids, because it gets trickier - there are things I don't absolutely believe in, but believe in the possibility of. The undefined aspects of my faith.

Per the previous section regarding purpose, let me say that I believe in the possibility of reincarnation. Come to earth, fail to fulfill whatever your purpose was? Do it over again. And again, and again, until you've fulfilled the purpose of your soul and return to heaven.

I do not know if heaven, or dwelling in the presence of God, means remaining a separate entity amongst entities, or becoming part of the collective soul that is all of heaven aside from God, or God itself. The idea of returning to join God, or for your soul to reattach itself to a sort of God-collective (the holy spirit?), makes a lot of sense in light of the "I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end."

I'm not sure I believe in the existence of a hell that eternally punishes. But I do consider the possibility that hell, and purgatory are simultaneous, and defined by our experience. In other words, maybe we're there. Maybe our souls split from God, needing to perfect something in order to return. Eternal damnation as a result of refusing to learn things like compassion and love mean that our soul continues to dwell on Earth through many lifetimes, until that lesson is learned. And that this is evidence of the compassion and mercy of God - even though God hates sin, I believe that a merciful God gives us infinite chances to turn that around, live a good life, improve the world, and ultimately attain his Grace.

Though I'm by no means a scholar of Jewish law or all the specifics of Kosher rules, and for that matter I'm not a great student of the bible either, having only read some parts of it and taking from it that which made sense to me, the overriding theme I gather from that which seems to be God's law, is that God loves us and wants the best for us, and that these rules of how to live our lives are really about trying to give us a life that is good, healthy, and hopefully happy. And that "disobeying God" is doing something that is either unhealthy for us, or will make our lives more difficult/painful. In this sense, the "laws" look a lot more like "guidelines". For example, if pork is not kosher, and many Jews are allergic to pork, then perhaps the reason pork is "forbidden" is so that Jews don't get sick. Or perhaps certain things are not kosher because they involve intelligent animals (pigs again) or because one meal requires the extermination of too many lives (shrimp), and that god loves pigs and shrimp too. But obviously, we're not forbidden to eat meat entirely (unless you're Hindi?), so there's a certain natural order to the world, where animals must eat each other, but perhaps that is the life purpose of dumber animals or animals who can create a meal more efficiently.

It's weird, I know, but I've delved into my musings here, areas I think about but haven't really made decisions on.

And now I've rambled on so long that I've entirely lost any other point I was trying to address.

In summary, I don't think you have to toss out the concept of God entirely, even if you wholesale reject the convictions of his followers. Perhaps God wants you to take a different path, or your own path, or any path other than thinking that there is no God, because if there isn't then how/why does the world exist? If it sprang out of nothing, where did it come from? What was nothing? If it always existed, how can that possibly be? The God explanation makes more sense to me. Strip away the bull**** of dogma and get back to the world exists, something is greater than us, souls do not spring up into existence out of nothing from nowhere. And the miracles of the world that science has uncovered and is trying to uncover are proof of the incredible complexity of God's intelligence. Evolution is so amazingly perfect a way for the world to adapt, continue, and change, that only God could have thought of it. (Yeah, I've never understood people who think that belief in evolution is at odds with belief in God). And we are NEVER EVER going to understand it all, aren't meant to, and probably couldn't wrap our brains around it even if we could know all the truth, so God spoon-feeds us a version of what we need to know to do what we need to do in our brief time here.

Sorry for the total ramble

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Morrigoon

You say "being good when you're really not" but who we are is defined by our choices. Harry Potter is a Gryffindor, not a Slytherin, KWIM?

No, not really. Especially when your next post includes this:

Originally Posted by Morrigoon

I do not buy into dogma, but rather look for underlying intent behind behavior.

If the intent behind apparently good acts is simply a desire to avoid punishment and not a desire to do good then I'd argue that your "goodness" is questionable. Though yes, it is often true that the beneficiary of such apparently good acts probably doesn't care.

Originally Posted by Morrigoon

However, accepting the sacrifice means realizing that you believe in Jesus and what he says.

What about the part where he says there's only one path to God and that is through him? Such as in John 3?

[Ghoulish Delight]

My question to scaeagles, Morrigoon, whomever is still interested in the conversation is this. Let's imagine that tomorrow you were presented with concrete, indisputable, utterly convincing-to-you proof that no god exists (I'll leave discussion of "burden of proof" to another time). If so, would your behavior change going forward? Would your personal desire to be good and do good things and treat other people "right" disappear? If not (as I imagine, and hope, is your answer), where does that leave the necessity for belief in god?

[alphabassettgrrl]

Proof of gods' existance- I'm not sure my behavior would change. I guess if proven, then I'd believe. I'm reasonably sure my desire to do good would not disappear- it's not dependent on instructions from anyone; I want to do good, because that's the kind of world I want to live in.

I don't "need" to believe in god(s), but I do believe that I've felt something that is out there. I guess maybe that moment of feeling proved it to me. I was looking, and curious, and my question was essentially answered.

[Alex]

Also on the "if proven" side, if proof were indisbutable, I'd believe. But I'd like to think that doesn't mean I would blindly follow. As mentioned above, the god described in the Bible (throughout, not just the Old Testament) is one I find reprehensible. This is true for the holy texts of most other religions as well.

To me, the demands for worship made by gods are no more reasonable than a domineering mother saying "I brought you into this world and therefore I get to pick your clothes and friends and job when your 40."

[Morrigoon]

And no less valuable than the advice of a parent who says: "Get good grades, go to college, shower every day, and don't date a woman just for her good looks" because they love you and genuinely want to see you have a good life.

[Morrigoon]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

My question to scaeagles, Morrigoon, whomever is still interested in the conversation is this. Let's imagine that tomorrow you were presented with concrete, indisputable, utterly convincing-to-you proof that no god exists (I'll leave discussion of "burden of proof" to another time). If so, would your behavior change going forward? Would your personal desire to be good and do good things and treat other people "right" disappear? If not (as I imagine, and hope, is your answer), where does that leave the necessity for belief in god?

First, I don't think that proof can or will ever be presented to me. I know something greater than me exists. Many things greater than me exist, starting with the Universe. Even if you could present some kind of "proof" to me that the Old Testament God didn't, I could point to the vastness of infinity and ask you where it came from. It came from somewhere, and if it didn't, if it is the beginning and the end, the alpha and the omega of existence, then we've come full circle. Then all of existence is God, God is everything, all souls come from the universe and return to the universe.

You can rip apart man's texts all you want, and I'll acknowledge their flaws right along with you. Again, because I think independently about my spirituality. But you can't shake my faith in something greater than myself. And you can't convince me that there's nothing after death. If there isn't anything after death, I really haven't lost anything believing in it.

I don't think life is in any way remotely enriched by a disbelief in God. I just don't see the upside. "Being right" is not an upside (if we take the assumption that you are right.) There's no prize for dying and going "Haha, I'm dead, see? Really dead, and there's nothing else - ever!" In fact, if you're right, you'll never really know it. Believing in life after death, if I'm wrong, I'll never know it, never have lost anything by being wrong. If you're wrong about God and life after death, there's a pretty tremendous potential downside.

Sure, there's a freedom from dogma, but I have that, and I didn't have to reject any idea that involved a being greater than myself. In fact, I find a certain dogma in atheism, and definitely a lot of proselytizing. Cemeinke is the first, and thus far only, non-proselytizing atheist I've ever met. So you've traded religion of a supreme being for religion of the non-existence of a supreme being. So what's the change?

I don't think my behavior would change as a result of the non-existence of a supreme being, but that's a silly reason* to actually stop believing in the existence of one. And certainly, there are times when the thought that being a good person, which I am for its own sake, might be pleasing to God, puts an extra note of sweetness to it. Like an extra spoonful of sugar in an already good cup of tea. Not that I go around every day asking myself if what I do is pleasing to a supreme being. But if I stop to think about it, I think, "Cool, yeah, he probably likes this". Sometimes I wonder about things, like when what I believe in my heart is right conflicts with what is written about the topic, but ultimately, I go with what my heart tells me, because I think right is right, regardless of what's written. And if I'm wrong, well, then I was wrong and there will be a price to pay, or not, but ultimately my measure of what is "right" comes from my heart, and I hope God agrees with me.

(*- the "silly reason" being whether or not my behavior would change, not the non-existence. Obviously if God didn't exist, it'd be a pretty good reason to stop believe in his existence. But whether or not a hypothetical non-existence would change my behavior, isn't.)

The advantage of being a monotheistic independent thinker is I can cherry pick information from the existing texts without having to reconcile what seems right with that which doesn't. Text are imperfect because man has written them (Divinely inspired, perhaps, but written, rewritten, and repeatedly edited by fallible men). "Right" is an immutable truth, and is not changed by man. I have to hope (faith?) that my heart tells me the real truth, even when it conflicts with what man's texts tell me.

I'll put a question to you, GD, and I genuinely want to know: what do you feel is the upside to discovering you were atheist? Was there a benefit to this conversion? Is there some area of your life that has dramatically improved by becoming an atheist that would not have improved if you merely become agnostic?

[flippyshark]

Originally Posted by Morrigoon

The advantage of being a monotheistic independent thinker is I can cherry pick information from the existing texts without having to reconcile what seems right with that which doesn't.

You get my Award For Honesty with this one. Lots of Christians I know cherry-pick and insist that they are actually finding the "true meaning" of scripture.

As an atheist, I think it is fun, stimulating and wise to browse the (purportedly) holy texts of history and give consideration to those ideas that seem useful, both in and out of their original contexts. So, I honestly applaud your willingness not to be bound to any sect or ideology, and to gleefully roll your own.

I know that you asked GD and not me, but I'll briefly say that my own embrace of no-god-ness felt like a release from prison. I don't have time to go into it now, as I'll soon be running late for work, but the benefits went well beyond simply feeling "right." In my own case, it helped me get rid of some nagging double-think, helped me drop some prejudices, and re-ordered my priorities a bit, but on the whole, I'm very much the same person as before. I feel more clear-headed on some topics, but I don't know everything. (including whether or not there is a massively powerful intellect hiding behind the cosmic curtain.) In fact, I now know that I know almost nothing at all.

More later if it seems appropriate.

(P.S. - You may find that what secularists call atheism, most people of faith call agnosticism. What most people of faith call atheism, most atheists reject. - In other words, atheists do not believe there is a god or gods, but most do not claim to know there isn't. To many, atheism and agnosticism are not even two different things, maybe only a matter of degree. More later if it seems appropriate. DP)