LoT Book CLub - Book 2 - Wind Up Bird Chronicle by Haruki Murakami

[SacTown Chronic]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

I also feel a connection between Boris the Manskinner and Norubu and wonder if they might be the same malignant force. When Lt. Mamiya is unable to shoot Boris what did this imply?

I thought (in retrospect, of course) that maybe only someone with blood ties to Boris/Norubu could kill him/them. This occured to me when alternate universe Toru fails to kill alternate universe Norubu and Komiko is forced to pull the plug on her brother.

Then again, I also considered that Boris the Manskinner knew Lt. Mamiya was not capable of killing another person in cold blood and Lt. Mamiya missed on purpose. But it sure felt like something prevented those bullets from hitting Boris.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by SacTown Chronic

Then again, I also considered that Boris the Manskinner knew Lt. Mamiya was not capable of killing another person in cold blood and Lt. Mamiya missed on purpose. But it sure felt like something prevented those bullets from hitting Boris.

It sure lends creadance to the Noboru as Toru's other theory, assuming you accept the Toru:Mayama::Noboru::Boris analogy. i.e., if Boris is Mayama's other, than he falls under the same prophecy as Mayama, namely that he would not die on that continent.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

I have to say that I am convinced that the lady on the phone and the person in the hotel room are Komiko - they are just the unconscious part of Komike that Toru doesn't recognize because he is only familiar with the worldly identity of Komiko. That was something that didn't gel with me the first time - but seems so obvious now.

Doesn't the book come right out and say this? My copy is at the library, so I can't verify it.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

Doesn't the book come right out and say this? My copy is at the library, so I can't verify it.

Yeah, that's what I think.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I was thinking about the "other" world and how unsubstantial it seemed. Often in stories when you have an other world it is more developed and understood. There's no full explanation in this book for the other world and it's much more dreamlike and vague.

I can't say that I like this idea as much as other concepts in the book. It leads me to feel unsatisifed with it. It seems almost lazy to me in retrospect, as if the whole concept could be described in one sentence: "There's this other world, and it's like a hotel, but you don't see faces, and Kumiko is represented by the woman in the bed, and the other people are just kinda there." It felt weak after the length of build-up, even though it does bring about an end to the story.

[€uroMeinke]

And another thing - this comment caught my attention because I feel exactly opposite:

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

I was thinking about the "other" world and how unsubstantial it seemed. Often in stories when you have an other world it is more developed and understood. There's no full explanation in this book for the other world and it's much more dreamlike and vague.

I can't say that I like this idea as much as other concepts in the book. It leads me to feel unsatisifed with it. It seems almost lazy to me in retrospect, as if the whole concept could be described in one sentence: "There's this other world, and it's like a hotel, but you don't see faces, and Kumiko is represented by the woman in the bed, and the other people are just kinda there." It felt weak after the length of build-up, even though it does bring about an end to the story.

Unlike a Tolkien or Rowlings, I don't think Murakami set out to create an "other" world with complex rules, histories, and mythologies - rather it is this vague other that remains almost erily ambiguous - there are no rules to pin things on, you just have to ride with the flow of experiences as Toru does and draw conclusions from your intuition rather than your intellect. I loved that aspect of the book, but I can easily see how someone else might not.

[Not Afraid]

I think he becomes convinced that it is Komiko, as she can use the Komiko voice that he recognizes, but I don''t think it is obviously Komiko - unless you apply the concept or "other identy" to the book.


As far as the duel identities, this is a concept that Murakami uses over and over in his fiction. There is always the abstract concept of deality that is present in his characters but, often, there is a physical manifestation of this duality as well. For me as a reader, it makes for very complex and interesting characters with the added touch of "magical realism" that I personally love in fiction (Garcia Marquez, Allende, Kundera, Rushde, Borges - all favorites). Both parts of a characters identity are needed for an understanding of each character, and Murakami does a great job of exploring thise parts of each of his characters - although it is certainly not overt. I think, as readers, we know asmuch about both Toru's and Komiko's "other" side by the end of the book as we do about their worldly identity.

I think most human being with any desire to be thoughtful about their own identity wants to know more about the "core" of himself. Everyone can see what sort of face we put forth, physically, and others can oftentimes see the other "something" that is internal by a strong driving force, but we often cannot see this in ourselves. I am fascinated by Murakami's take on each characters search for their "whole" identity - the real world version and the internal core identity.


I've been thinking about the water elements and the use of the word "flow" throughout the book. Malta Kano comes into Toru's house early on and checks the water to see if there is a problem with flor. Throughout the book, there are water/flow references. They culminate and end after Toru beats and kills his "evil identity (Norubu Wataya) and the well begins filling up with water. At that point, the healthy "flow" of his life is restored once the blockage is removed. I know there are hundreds of such analogies within the book and I can tie this into the concept of the wind Up Bird as a representative of the flow of time. This will take further explaination on my part, but I am, still formulating this concept.

[Alex]

Toru is also extremely isolated and completely the nexus of the characters in the book. Other than one session where both Norubu and Malta are present and the dual character of Cinnamon and Nutmeg, no person in the book with whom Toru interacts ever interacts with another person.

May never interacts with Kumiko never interacts with Creta never interacts with Cinnamon/Nutmeg never interacts with Lt. Miyami, and so on. Past interactions are mentioned but never observed directly.

No character in the story could, if questioned, directly confirm the existence of any other character.

Which raises for me the possibility that none of the events described really happened. That it is all just the metaphorical coping of a man who has learned his wife was unfaithful and waiting to see how they cope with that.

But that's most likely going to far.

[Not Afraid]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Toru is also extremely isolated and completely the nexus of the characters in the book. Other than one session where both Norubu and Malta are present and the dual character of Cinnamon and Nutmeg, no person in the book with whom Toru interacts ever interacts with another person.

May never interacts with Kumiko never interacts with Creta never interacts with Cinnamon/Nutmeg never interacts with Lt. Miyami, and so on. Past interactions are mentioned but never observed directly.

No character in the story could, if questioned, directly confirm the existence of any other character.

Which raises for me the possibility that none of the events described really happened. That it is all just the metaphorical coping of a man who has learned his wife was unfaithful and waiting to see how they cope with that.

But that's most likely going to far.

Interesting line of thought. It beings to mind the several references to imagination that are brought up in the third part - one is in reference to Mayama and Boris the Manskinner and their relationship, the other is between Toru and the "other" Kumiko in their final encounter in room 208. Oh, to have a searchable copy of the book.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

Oh, to have a searchable copy of the book.

Here you go.