Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull [use spoiler tags, please]

[Alex]

Good point. I retract my comments.

[innerSpaceman]

I don't exactly know what the Nazi threat was after the first 10 minutes of Raiders. That's not the best example, because the Nazi threat and how that threat would never be a threat were all wrapped up in the really cool McGuffin that pervaded the movie.

I guess a better example is the Nazis in The Last Crusade. They were a threat because they continued to harass and threaten our heroes, not because they were going to invade Poland, or even because Adolph Hitler might become immortal.


The Russians in Indy 4 were less threatening, but they were still Indy's adversaries. I don't think it was any more necessary for them to be spreading communism along the Amazon than it was for the Nazis in Last Crusade to fill the armoured Tank with deadly gas once Brody and Professer Jones were captively onboard.

[Alex]

No, but the actions by the Nazis in the in those films were placed within a context of why they were a larger threat to society success for them would make them even worse. And Indiana Jones preventing them from getting the object of their desire was given relevance beyond simply the adventure at hand. No, the Nazi threat wasn't explicit throughout the movies but they were implicit and gave things more weight.

While I admit that some attempt was made at accomplishing this at the beginning of Crystal Skull I feel they failed to establish it ("oh, I'm being blacklisted, I guess I'll take a train trip...le sigh") and ultimately it was just two groups of people chasing the same object.

[innerSpaceman]

But by that token, perhaps the adversaries who were the biggest threats were the Thuggies, because they were really nasty to our hero characters, despite having little potential effect on the outside world.

And I think the Nazis in Raiders were shown to be bigger baddies because they were prone to torture Marion Ravenwood. I guess, by extension, that reminded audiences of what butchers the Nazis were. And even though Stalin was arguably a bigger butcher than Hitler, the Nazis just have a much more horrible rep that --- yes, absolutely make them a better movie villain than the Ruskes.

But, being that they had to deal with Indy's age, I think they were wise to fast-forward to the Soviets ... and perhaps it would have been better to make them nastier ... but I think they played to their stereotypes just as "faithfully" as earlier Indy films played to Nazi stereotypes.

In any event, I think it's the threat of danger to the characters we like that makes a villain villainous ... and not so much the danger that group of villains poses to society at large.

I'll admit, Indy 4 comes in dead last by both standards.



But now at least we're getting at weaknesses that I think hold more water than whether the action was believeable.

[€uroMeinke]

Perhaps the aliens can return in Indy 5 to reveal themselves as what they truly are - inter-dimensional grave robbers stealing the treasures of Earth and the third dimension.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

Perhaps the aliens can return in Indy 5 to reveal themselves as what they truly are - inter-dimensional grave robbers stealing the treasures of Earth and the third dimension.

Not quite but there is a short story in last month's Asimov's that is vaguely along those lines.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

And I think the Nazis in Raiders were shown to be bigger baddies because they were prone to torture Marion Ravenwood. I guess, by extension, that reminded audiences of what butchers the Nazis were.

This point reminds me of all the stuff in Crusade that alluded to Nazi evil, such as the book burning (which was not only shown, but mentioned by both Henry Jr. and Sr.), and the part where they try to buy off the ruler of the made-up nation where the grail is hidden using gold trinkets "donated by some of Germany's finest families", ie Jews. Both of those bits gave me the shudders as a kid, and was plenty to remind me that this wasn't just about chasing an artifact, but about true evil getting some serious power.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

and was plenty to remind me that this wasn't just about chasing an artifact, but about true evil getting some serious power.

Hrmm, actually, they rather explicitly said that wasn't the case. When Indy confronted Elsa about being a Nazi she said, "Are you kidding, they just want to find the grail for bragging rights. I want it for the immortality!"

[CoasterMatt]

The aliens from Indy 4 are the Sleestaks from Land of the Lost.

[innerSpaceman]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

Perhaps the aliens can return in Indy 5 to reveal themselves as what they truly are - inter-dimensional grave robbers stealing the treasures of Earth and the third dimension.

Joking maybe, but that would be awesome. I really think the aliens should have been shown as more of a 50's style threat, much more sinister and scary than the Russians ... who were played mostly for laughs and sex appeal.

Too bad Spielberg or Lucas or both couldn't seem to bring themselves to posit truly vicious and ill-willed aliens. But a 50's-themed Indy adventure calls for that treatment just as validly as did War of the Worlds ... and I wish Spielberg would have caught on to that.