Fate and Destiny: a philosophy thread

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

Wicca does not involve...running around naked in the woods.

That's not what you told me last Saturday!

[Ponine]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

It is hard to provide a detailed elaboration to such a basic concept (I say this not to be condescending, but because the question has me a little stumped). In searching for an answer online which would (hopefully) help me better express the thought, I ran across this:

Oh Kevy, I have agonized over this for days…. For hours at a time, and occasionally, mere moments.
I’ve always been referred to as a fatalist. I always thought it was because I always expect the worst case scenario.
I see now, that in fact, that is not what the word means.
I am far too solicitous for any one persons well being. And I think in a great many ways that has a lot to do with how I see the ideas of fate and destiny.

I’ve seen too many different religions at my young age to take one and just run with it and accept what it has to say as gospel truth.
I was accused of witchcraft as a teenager, and made an example of to my school… this clouds my perceptions of the Wicca faith. (Not that it is in any way wrong, I have just never delved because of my previous experiences.)

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

Also, there are variations of the "Wiccan Reed" (or "Rede"), …snip…

This I was unable to view, it was blocked.

Nevertheless…
I’ve read things that I agree with this and that, and never quite agree with all….
I believe that we, as people, are set into this life with a reason to be here, but that reason is different for each of us.
We are able to “create” the better part of our lives by our actions, and how we interact with our world.
I believe we are connected to other people, or souls repeatedly over time, and possibly in different ways.
My best friend now, may be my brother in the next life, he may be my father. The boyfriend that touched me so deeply before his untimely death, may reoccur in a similar role, never to fufill, but always to affect.

There’s a reason for the people we encounter, we just don’t know what it is at the time.
Do I believe in the idea of the three fold … interesting. I like it, and I can see its merit. I am a very firm believer in the golden rule. Those of you who know me have prob seen it demonstrated in less than ideal situations.
I don’t want to wrong anyone, and I obsess over it when I think I have. Sometimes to an extreme point of figuring out what I can do to make it up to them.

Do I think some of it is pre-ordained? Absolutely. I agree with ISM,

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

Does that answer your question?

It does and it doesn’t , but I suspect you guessed that. I am unsure what an “simple, earth-based Pagan belief system” is, but in this scenario I think that’s okay.

I’m rambling… at its core… I suppose I believe in fate, more than destiny. The ties that bind, the yarns in the tapestry of life…
My soul is bound to yours, who we are to each other this lifetime is not at stake, but I will always be bound.

[€uroMeinke]

Oddly enough, I think it's Alex's "unknowable" which makes me abandon any absolute metaphysics and fall back on phenomenology, my experience of the world - stating with the Cartesian premise, "I think therefore I am."

Alex's view may well be reality, but does nothing to inform me of how I might change my actions. See, illusory or not - I experience the world as if I have free will and even if I come to the conclusion that science reduces all my actions into chemical or sub-atomic reactions - I'm still left with a notions of "well, what am I going to do about it then?" and the illusion of free will emerges again, so in my phenomenological world, I have to accept that.

Steve's notion of the nonexistence - or ultimate compression of time is an interesting one, that there is no duration or sequence, rather just being - if I understand correctly. It makes questions of fate or destiny rather different, in a sense it becomes all the stuff that you are missing in that sigularity of compressed time. For me though, since I experience the passge of time, I have to also reject that notion even if it is true, as I have a creative sense of guiding my future.

[wendybeth]

I have a very scattered and selective philosophical view of my life- I don't presume to know what's going on in anyone elses sphere of existence- kinda got my hands full with my own.

First and foremost- depends on my mood. Seriously- I can be so damned mercurial, and I know it. I suppose at my core I believe in personal responsibility and choice, yet I can't help but notice how fated things can sometimes appear to be. I was raised by a relatively enlightened madwoman, who exposed me to whatever religion/philosophy/scientific discipline she was following at the time. As a result, I learned a little about a lot, particularily eastern religions and metaphysical philosophies. (Damned Sixties!) The only thing that has remained constant over the years is this persistant feeling I've always had that there is much I cannot know now, but someday I will know it. That's enough for me, but it doesn't keep me from searching. I also believe in the concept of karma, in that there must be balance in all things natural, and anytime that balance is thrown off the offender will pay- one way or another.

Tomorrow, I will post something quite different. Told you I was moody.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

Alex's view may well be reality, but does nothing to inform me of how I might change my actions.

Absolutely, thus I don't really see a conflict between what I think is the nature of the universe and the fact that I feel societal and personal judgement are important. That I try to live a live as I think should be lived.

Even though I don't think there is any such thing as should, we are hardwired to think in those terms. I don't believe I cause anything but don't really have a choice but to think as if I do.

If you shot a photon from our sun towards Mars, and then could give it the ability to think, I think it could only have one possible thought: "I really want to go to Mars." That is, the first thing the photon would do with its ability to think is imbue its course with intent.

I also think it is likely that we are generally hardwired to believe in "gods" and that somehow this hardwiring is deficient in me (I've never had a moment of spiritual or religious faith or revelation in my life) and so to the extent that I do interpret the universe it is completely in the absence of the supernatural.

[Gemini Cricket]

My answer: I don't know.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'm with € n the "sure it MIGHT be that way, but I gotta go with what I can see from my perspective" camp. I'm perfectly willing to believe my sense of self is a complete illusion, the result of an elaborate dream by some other being. But even if that's so, I have no way to experience myself as that, all I have is the perception of this life.

As for what that perception is...I suppose I believe in the possibility of fate and destiny, but believe it's so unknowable as to be irrelevent. I simply live my life by making the choices I think are right. Whether those choices are truly free or guided entirely by some other force (natural, pretanatural, supernatural, unnatural) I'll never know. So I tend not to really ponder it too much.

I do believe in God, but so far the only thing I've proven to myself is the existence of that God, not "his" nature. I have some assumptions and working theories, but none of them are solid. Therefore, my personal sense of self and morality that I've built remain valid to me whether God exists or not. While I personally believe that God does have something to do with my life, if I'm wrong about that I would still prefer my life to have some meaning, so I make my own.

[scaeagles]

I do not beleive in fate, destiny, or preordination. I believe in the concept of free will.

Why? Well, I suppose that is not an easy answer.

I am a basic Bible believing, Jesus worshipping Christian. I believe that God exists and has always existed. I believe he exists at all points in time. Being that, he knows exactly what will happen in my life. Does this mean it is preordained? Not in the least. I have free will to make choices. God just knows what choices I am going to make.

Though raised in a "Christian" family - meaning your basic suburban church going family - my family situation actually drove me away from any practical application of faith for several years. Various personal experiences and revelations brought me back to it.

I think I answered the OP questions, so I'll leave it at that. I certainly have more than my share of religious/philosophical thoughts which I have no doubt no one wants to read about.

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I certainly have more than my share of religious/philosophical thoughts which I have no doubt no one wants to read about.

Quite the contrary, while an athiest myself I love to hear people's personal experiences with God. I believe I have the same messed-up wireing as Alex so my atheism comes to me not so much from a rejection of the supernatural, but rather a sense of personal integrity in that I just don't recognize god in my day to day life and to claim it would be dishonest to my personal experience. But I know plenty who have had that numinous experience, the sense of God's presence and that fascinates me, for who am I to discount the personal experience of others?

Originally Posted by Eliza Hodgkins 1812 quoting Milan Kundera

will also add this quote:

It is wrong to chide the novel for being satisfied by mysterious coincidences, but it is right to chide man for being blind to such coincidences in his daily life. For he thereby deprives his life of a dimension of beauty.
- Milan Kundera

Much better said, I simply delight in discovering the connections in the disconnected - it is a most humbling beauty and source of pleasure even in the bleakest circumstances

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

I believe I have the same messed-up wireing as Alex so my atheism....

I find that to be an interesting statement by both you and Alex. Messed up wiring. I have found most atheists I have known (not a whole bunch mind you, but a few) and those who make themselves known in the media are quite a condescending bunch who think they are the only ones with wiring that works. Can't quantify God, so therefore no God can exist. Only logical to them, and anything else is unlogical. Proof rather than faith or it is simply gibberish. I find your attitude quite refreshing.

I have had my experiences with what I believe to be supernatural forces. I have no doubt about I experienced and no doubt what the cause was. However, that being said, I have had other experiences that make make me certainly figure that God is not someone to meddle in my day to day affairs, whether I ask him to or not. I used the term "divine micromanagement" in a thread a while ago, and I simply don't believe that God operates in that fashion.

God established the world with certain natural and physical laws. With exception, of course, he allows those those laws to play themselves out. He provided free will to allow the choice to do whatever we would wish. I am reminded of this exchange from "Bruce Almighty" -

Bruce: "How do you make someone love you without messing with free will?"
God: "Welcome to my world."