Could you forgive someone who shot you?

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

I didn't say it was a bad thing, just that I don't think she really understand what she is saying. Maybe later she'll understand and still stand by what she said. Or she won't.

It's like teaching a kid to say "please" and "thank you." They'll be coached (or raised) to say it at the appropriate times long before they really mean it.

I agree with this to a point. I small children can feel all these things, just to a lesser extent. We've chosen not to prompt for things like please and thank you, and just to model it instead. Humans being the social beings they are, will copy behaviors that make fitting into society easier. So when Indi says "thank you" when I hand him a carrot, no doubt it's just because he's heard me say thank you whenever he hands me something. But when we give him something he really loves and he gives us a big hug and says, "MMM. I love you!" I think that he really does feel gratitude.

Likewise, he may say sorry when he's made a mistake because he hears us say it, but when he breaks a toy and apologizes to it, it's clear that he really does feel regret. I accidentally threw a small favorite toy of his away last week. He was upset, of course, but when I apologized, he looked at me for a minute then said, "It's ok" and went to play. It would seem to me like he forgave me.

Sorry for so many anecdotes, they're all I really have to go by in this instance. I think that the girl in question can only forgive what she understands. So at this point, she can forgive him for the fact that she has to be in a wheelchair and can't run and play. That's probably the extent of her understanding.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

This brings to mind a provocative view of free will I've recently read and have mulled over. The picture goes something like this:

Thank you for that food for philosophical thought.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Nephythys

But the discussion requires theology- and in this mixed company the conversation would be......tiring.

In what way is our company "mixed?" Christian and not? Republican and not? Those that agree with you and not? We have many discussions here that require theology. I wouldn't call any of them tiring. Interesting would be the word of my choice.

(and sorry for serial posting.)

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

This brings to mind a provocative view of free will I've recently read and have mulled over.

Yeah, I don't believe in free will but that tends to freak people out so I try not to mention it too often. You might find these recent blog posts from Scott Adams of interest, if you haven't already seen them (part 1, part 2).


tracilicious, I don't mean to imply that children can't feel forgiveness or gratitude. Just that frequently they don't understand why their obligated to do so in certain situations. And why you sometimes say "thank you" or "I forgive you" when you don't really mean it.

[tracilicious]

Yes, I agree. I often do the same thing. I'm really not that grateful that the bag person at the grocery store bagged up my stuff. They did get paid to do so. I still say thank you though, as it's the societally acceptable thing to do.

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

In what way is our company "mixed?" Christian and not? Republican and not? Those that agree with you and not? We have many discussions here that require theology. I wouldn't call any of them tiring. Interesting would be the word of my choice.

(and sorry for serial posting.)

Mixed as in varied views on faiths...don't take it as any sort of slight. I'm exhausted. I'm working on my securities license, I'm burning the candle at both ends and the middle and the thought- to me- of having a conversation on forgiveness from the theological view sounds tiring. It was my post, my view, my opinion. There is no need to take it any other way- breathing is tiring today. Thinking deeply enough to take part adequately is downright exhausting.

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

This brings to mind a provocative view of free will I've recently read and have mulled over. The picture goes something like this.

But free will is not random chaos, so I don't think your dialogue refutes free-will. I think we do make choices all the time - even unpleasent ones. But also, free will does not make us omnipotent - we are all trapped within a certain set of restrictions of what we can and cannot do. My inability to fly does not mean I don't have free will even if I want to be able to do it.

As for forgiveness, I the concept is the best thing to come out of Christianity - and what ever other predecessor religions it was apporpriated from.

I'd like to think I coulod do the same as the girl.

[innerSpaceman]

Yeah, I don't get any lack of free will from the philosophical conversation snippet. € indicated the reasons for it quite well. And I wonder how Alex has the free will to decide he has no free will?

* * * *

I can't speak for a little paralyzed girl. I can't speak my my gunshot paralyzed nephew. But I can speak for my gunshot nephew's shellshocked uncle ... and forgiveness for such a thing (done quite on purpose in this particular case) will not be anything I'm likely ever to experience. It's been three years ... and if I'm not movin' on yet, I don't see how I'm ever going to.

[Nephythys]

Is it harder because it was deliberate? Or is that not the issue?

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

But you can't really ever teach someone to let go of anger. You can only help them in a small way. The girls anger is her own. She will probably feel it at least from time to time for the rest of her life.

This is an excellent point.

I'm going to tell a story, names omitted, because I think it relates.

Someone very dear to me was a victim of incest between the ages of three and eight. I have watched her walk a path of forgiveness for many years, but this does not mean that she has completely let go of her feelings. She was still kind to her perpetrator in his final hours. But I've also seen her occasional bursts of rage (sometimes misdirected at those around her) and her long-term anger applied to self-loathing in the form of slow suicide in one way or another. No matter how many times she chooses to forgive, she's still haunted by what happened.

I absolutely believe that the little girl-- and the woman I know-- can forgive. But it's going to have to happen every day for the rest of their lives. And some days, they may not. Such is the process of forgiveness.

In a spiritual sense, I liken it to the sort of thing I've seen done by certain Christian sects, where they make people stand up in front of everyone and ask them if they "accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior?" That's a decision man is not capable of making just once. That's an every day decision.