Court forcing 16 yr old with cancer into chemo

[scaeagles]

With my achalasia, I tried everything. Chiropractic, herbal, acupuncture...to no avail.

I will say there have been times when chiropractic have helped with other things in my life - for example, my eldest daughter had lots of repeated ear infections for the first year of her life. A chiropractor friend said he could help, and by golly, he did. After about three trips she never got another one.

With acupuncture, I can say that I think it does something.....I was rather tense going in for my first time (not excited about needles being stuck all over me), and the doctoe could tell, so she put some in a couple spots in each ear. Two minutes later I was completely relaxed. Now, it did nothing to help my achalasia during my course of treatment, but I could tell it was doing something.

[Morrigoon]

Slippery slope.

Yes, in this individual case, the world feels like the parents are making the wrong decision and that the patient is not competent to make his own medical decisions.

But where does it end? These same busybodies could easily turn around and say that pregnant women should be jailed in maternity wards for the entire term of their pregnancy and fed state-mandated regiment of healthy foods and vitamins to ensure that they don't medically harm their babies at any stage of the pregnancy. I know that sounds extreme, but it's really a slippery slope once you have the government and doctors being allowed to override the wishes of both patient and parents.

Whatever happened to the right of privacy? Of control over your own body? This boy committed no felony, he has harmed no one. Under what circumstances do we say it is okay to forcibly make him endure a treatment that is universally accepted as being horrible to go through? Whatever happened to DNR requests? Isn't refusing treatment the same thing?

If either the boy or his parents did consent to this treatment, my position might be different, but neither does. The government needs to mind its own damn business at that point, regardless of the result. A result, mind you, selected by both the boy AND his guardians.

If a 16-year old can be tried as an adult for committing murder, why can't he decide what he wants to do with his own body? So what if we don't like the choice he makes... it's HIS choice to make and it affects nobody but himself.

[Nephythys]

why is the slippery slope argument acceptable for some things (that people don't approve of) and is disregarded when it is used against something people do support?

hmmmm

[Not Afraid]

why is the slippery slope argument acceptable for some things (that people don't approve of) and is disregarded when it is used against something people do support?

hmmmm

Because you conservatives are just not consistant, that's why.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

Because you conservatives are just not consistant, that's why.

HEY!

[Not Afraid]

I couldn't resist that one.

[mousepod]

I don't want Alex to bear the brunt of all the skeptical backlash, so I'll just say that I completely agree with his last post.
Perhaps we could start another thread to talk about various opinions on alternative medicines. As a skeptic, I do lots of reading on the subject. For the record, I have no vested interest in keeping alternative medicine out... I just want to know that it works. As far as acupuncture goes, I have heard plenty of stories that claim its efficacy (including my own family members), but I have yet to see a true double-blind study that satisfies my own skepticism. I want to believe, but you'll have to prove it to me...

[tracilicious]

Hmmm...I'll have to do some advanced googling. I'm a skeptic with nearly everything. I suppose I've just read too much about Western medicine. Too many doctors using drugs not proven effective for different conditions and age groups, using the wrong medicines for the wrong things, etc. It seems like the general theory is throw a bunch of pills at something and see what happens. Not too scientific, in my opinion.

[Alex]

Doctors do not tend to be scientific in their approach to medicine. Most practicing doctors couldn't define statistical significance and are swamped everyday by anecdotal interactions. Researchers try to put into a scientific framework.

There are small studies that show efficacy for acupuncture, but they've all been generally too small for significant to be avialable. A study of 22 people just has too much room for statistical error.

There are two scientific organizations (the Cochrane Collaboration and Bandolier) that attempt to issue reviews concatenating evidence-based medical studies. There has not been a reputed effect of acupuncture that their reviews find overwhelmingly indicate positive effects though in many pain related areas there is enough positive research to indicate further research should be done.

For me, the damning element of acupuncture is that there are competing schools of theory completely at odds with each other. You may not be able to see a microwave but you can see indisputable secondary effects of their presence. You can create a testable framework for how microwaves work and make predictions that can be confirmed or disproved. What exists in the different schools of acupuncture is similar to if you want to two traditional physicians and said "I'm having a heart attack" and one immediately went to work on your knee while another immediately began massaging your buttocks. There is no theoretical framework in which acupuncture exists and relies on theories of a lifeforce that, by definition, can not be detected.

As you Google you will find that the National Institutes of Health have a pretty positive take on acupuncture (and althernative medicine in general) but then they also have a congressional mandate to promote alternative medicine so that isn't too surprising. They are on the far positive side of traditional scientific organizations and even they say there is as yet no generally accepted scientific evidence for acupuncture claims, just that they are confident that with sufficient study they will be found.

Again, I am not saying that acupuncture doesn't do anything. I'm saying that there is no strong evidence that it does anything, what it is doing if it does something, or how it might actually accomplish whatever it is claimed it can do. It is correct to say that there are many things in medicine where there is no framework for how it works, but then in those cases where it is used anyway there is almost always strong clinical evidence that it does work

At its root "throw a lot of pills at something and see what happens" is pretty much the very definition of science as long as you're making some attempt to objectively evaluate what does then happen.

Without that objective analysis you have the world of acupuncture where they just throw a bunch of needles at the person and see what happens.

Further, when it comes to medical treatment, there is a second question beyond "does it help" and that is "does it help better than this other thing that helps." For the sake of argument, let's say that acupuncture can put 8% of lung cancer into remission. That's great, definitely shows that acupuncture has therapeutic value. But is it a reasonable choice of treatment if its is shown that standing on your head and spinning in circles puts 72% of lung cancer into remission?

Almost all the areas where acupuncture shows some promise is in pain management. Claims of actual disease treatment (and there is a huge range of what acupuncture practitioners belief their treatment can heal) have shown almost no positive correlation.

I know, it is silly to argue this so strongly. People will believe what they want to believe. (Though it is still strange to me that Western medicine will - rightly - be condemned for when it fails to live up to an ideal of scientific objectivity but "altnerative medicine" will be embraced for never even trying.)

You should see me on the subject of homeopathy. I can't walk into my mothers bathroom without getting angry.

[mousepod]

I agree with you, tracilicious. In fact, it's the "not proven effective" part that sticks in my craw, whether it be western medicine or alternative medicine.