"Liberal Queer"

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

I can't really agree with you. I hate alcoholism, but love many alcoholics. It's who they are, it's as natural to them to be alcoholics as it is for you to be gay, but that doesn't mean I like that alcoholism exists, or that I don't want to help them deal with their alcoholism. There's no difference, on that side of things.

Here is the difference that I see. Alcoholism is destructive, not only in the eyes of God (if that is what you believe) but in the physical well-being of someone who drinks. By getting someone to stop drinking, you are doing a service to them and possibly saving their life.

Trying to pressure someone to stop being gay is destructive. Being gay isn't. And for those that say that God says it is, I would ask that they stop assuming that they have the right to speak for, and judge on the behalf of God.

edited to add: I posted before I saw your most recent post, GD. Still, I think this may somewhat serve as a response to your later post.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Well said, GC. Although you pretty much negated the long post I just wrote, you said it more elequently than I was going to. Glad you chimed back in.

I've never been able to buy into the "Love the sinner, hate the sin" philosophy. It's great for the person espousing it because, in their mind, it absolves them of doing any harm. "We love you even though your thoughts and actions are evil" just doesn't cut it however. It puts extreme pressure on a person to try to become something that they can never be so that they can be accepted by their family. Imagine yourself in that position.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

It puts extreme pressure on a person to try to become something that they can never be so that they can be accepted by their family. Imagine yourself in that position.

But how would you compare it to alcoholish? Everyone seems to agree that it's everyone's best interest for an alcoholic to pretend to be someone they can never be. People understand the concept of "hate the sin, not the sinner" there. Why is it so much different for homosexuality (other than the disagreement about it being a sin, but like I said, that's a separate question).

[Ghoulish Delight]

Okay, I'll say it again...that' NOT what I'm arguing. I KNOW you don't believe homosexuality is destructive, and you know I don't believe that. But people like Keyes do. And whether you agree with him or not, that's where he's coming from. So while I find his basic premise completely off-base, I do NOT question his love for his own family. That's the topic. That's the "hate the sin, love the sinner" that you say you don't understand. If you see someone you love doing something that you think is desctructive, you are going to continue to dislike the trait, that doesn't preclude you from loving that person anymore.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

So while I find his basic premise completely off-base, I do NOT question his love for his own family. That's the topic. That's the "hate the sin, love the sinner" that you say you don't understand. If you see someone you love doing something that you think is desctructive, you are going to continue to dislike the trait, that doesn't preclude you from loving that person anymore.

I understand where you are coming from, GC. I really do. I don't question that they love their daughter either. That's never been my position. Parents want what is best for their child. I get that.

I do understand the concept of "Love the sinner, hate the sin" as it would apply to something like alcoholism or thievery. I also understand that in their mind, there is no difference between those examples and homosexuality.

My frustration comes from the fact that when the concept "LTS, HTS" is applied to being gay, it can actually do more harm than good, IMO, even if that harm isn't deliberate.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

I understand where you are coming from, GC.

Did you mean GD, by any chance?

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

Did you mean GD, by any chance?

Ummm, yeah.

[scaeagles]

There are all sorts of genetic issues coming out, such as a predisposition to alcoholism, obesity, whatever. Someone very close to me is obese. Not completely her fault at all (note completely), as she exercises and tries to eat right, but she does have a certain genetic disposition to it (family history, etc). This does not absolve her, however, from the times she overeats or eats things that are poison to her system.

MBC, I have never understood why acceptance of someone as a person means acceptance of their activities. Should I surmise that you do not accept me because I choose to participate with Republicans and support their campaign efforts? Certainly not. While my political standing is most likely not genetic (though the side effects of me going liberal would be something like organ transplant rejection, I'm sure), I choose to do such a thing, and you find the things that I believe in to be....unacceptable a lot of the time.

The "love the sinner, hate the sin" does nothing for me in terms of absolution. I have a friend - and evangelical Christian, no less - that is divorcing her husband. The Bible says the God hates divorce. Do I think she is making the right choice? No. I am not in her shoes, though, and would not care to be (hmmm....that would make me gay and a proponent of gay marriage if i were married to her husband....), but i can still call her my friend and our family is doing our best (in limited fashion - she isn't living with us or anything) to help her through the emotional devastation. We most certainly love her, but are saddened by her choice.

My 11 year old daughter makes choices all the time that I disapprove of. I love her to death, and it's part of the learning process for her. You know how hard it is for me to let her not study and get a poor grade on a test? Drives me nuts. Ayway, I most certainly intervene if there is a possibility of harm. When I was not a parent, parenting was so easy. I would not suggest that anyone who does not have children cannot comment on the Keyes situation, but parenthood adds a certain perpective that non parents do not have. Who else involved here has kids? Please do not read into my statements that I believe my opinion is of more value because I have kids. I just have a perspective that many here do not. I will also add that I am not gay, so that is a perspective that many here have that I do not.

[Ghoulish Delight]

AARRGH! Okay, you're all really starting to frustrate me. I'm not disagreeing that he's a homophobe and that his views on homosexuality are wrong! All I'm saying is that it's not unfathomable that this man still loves his freaking daughter. While I find his message and political goals distasteful, that doesn't mean he hates her.

My father-in-law is a hate filled man. He's a homophobe, he's a racist, and he's a bigot about just about anything. He's the most judgemental SOB I've ever met. I know for a fact that he hates some of the decissions that CP has made. But while I cannot respect his beliefs, I never question that he loves his daughter, or that she loves him.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

AARRGH! Okay, you're all really starting to frustrate me.

Try being Keyes's daughter. Imagine how frustrating that would be. Conflicting stances, the uncertainty of a father's love, being in the public eye, coming out, lack of support, being okay with yourself...

I consider myself ignorant on what you're saying about alcoholism and I will research that and get back to you. But I doubt Keyes could even say that when it came to his daughter. So if they do want to take this conflict public, then we're allowed to discuss what we think about him and his daughter. I don't think we should judge their love for one another, we don't know them personally, but we can discuss, agree and disagree... Right?

I'm not meaning to be frustrating and I don't know anything about genetics. All I do know is that I DO know what it's like to have parents judge you as Keyes is doing...