Religious Freedom

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

I wonder if this is just standard variation from one congregation to another or if it is has become more rigid in the last 20 years (man, I can't believe it has been almost 20 years for me), but I don't recall ever experiencing any direct pressure not to associate with anybody I wanted (other than the disassociated), nor did my parents stop doing so.

I can't really say definitively. I've been in seven or eight congregations in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona and it's been pretty consistent. In 89 or 90 they released a book specifically for young people that stressed not associating with unbelievers or participating in extra curricular school activities. There's a good chance that people do have unbelieving friends and they just don't talk about it.

And we were encouraged to read the bible (which is why I have read most of it), and not even just their translation but we also used the KJV. But yes, the official interpretation of things was always in your face.

We were always encouraged to read the bible, but only the New World Translation. Any other version was considered highly inaccurate.

Is it true that in recent years, the fine people in New York have moved away from the idea that Armageddon will happen before the last person alive in 1914 dies? I've always said that the first step in the maturation of a religion is abandoning specific predictions for the end of the world.

I'm not totally solid on current doctrine, but they've hinted strongly at 2034. They are using the 120 years before the flood and comparing our time to Noah's or something. So 120 years from 1914 is 2034. They haven't said it outright, but the hints are there. It's just vague enough to cover their asses when it doesn't come. The entire 1914 thing is hilarious as it's historically and biblically inaccurate. I think the people in power know that, but abandoning that would be a huge nail in their coffin. They are pushing the Armageddon thing like I've never seen before. I think they're scared because so many people are leaving.

The thing I most liked about their specific brand of faith was that it got me out of having to celebrate my birthday (which I didn't like even when we did it) and the rejection of the trinity. The concept of the trinity has always struck me as very stupid so I'm glad I didn't have to try and internalize it.

Lol, that was the think I liked least growing up. Yes the trinity thing always struck me as dumb too. Though if we are all God's creations then I guess it doesn't matter whether Jesus is God or Jesus is from God. Technicality really. But JW's thrive on technicalities. I always liked the hell thing the best, as I have yet to see it accurately supported biblically. Though, I'm not sure how 99% of humanity dying is much better.

I think my sister will come around. She's married to an unbeliever after all.

[Never Grow Up]

Well traci and Alex....I was recently disfellowshipped! lol

I was an elder, pioneer, bethelite etc! But funny how things change when you "come out"

I had an attraction to the same sex since I was 4 and after spending 32 years trying to make everyone else happy, I dicided it was time to make me happy!

It's funny though, I got "kicked out" for being gay, but the man, my father, that molested me for many years is still an elder in the "church"

So, I say, "Welcome Aboard!"

[wendybeth]

Hey, welcome to the boards, NGW, and I'd invite you to just jump right in, but you already have! You'll be a fine fit to our Swanky family.


I can't help but read this thread and think that it's truly terrible, the things we do, in the name of God, Jesus or whatever other divinity you want to cite. I can't believe that people would turn away from family or be so easily swayed by others that annoint themselves as holy leaders and then require their followers to do such awful things. I find my trust in others has become very much compromised, but it's not such a big deal because I've always kind of followed my own path anyway.

[Never Grow Up]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

Hey, welcome to the boards, NGW, and I'd invite you to just jump right in, but you already have! You'll be a fine fit to our Swanky family.


I can't help but read this thread and think that it's truly terrible, the things we do, in the name of God, Jesus or whatever other divinity you want to cite. I can't believe that people would turn away from family or be so easily swayed by others that annoint themselves as holy leaders and then require their followers to do such awful things. I find my trust in others has become very much compromised, but it's not such a big deal because I've always kind of followed my own path anyway.

Yes, none of my family has spoken to me in several years! But they are the ones missing out on my great life!

[wendybeth]

Alex, it's a bit of a stretch to extend my statement to the lengths you have, so I thank you for your clarification. Yes, I think mankind does have a tendency towards assholiness. I do not think Jesus was an asshole in any way, shape or form- just the people who try to speak for him and use and abuse his message. I really don't think I trust any man or woman, so I guess I will plod along on my merry way and hope for the best. If I'm wrong, so be it- I don't think I'd want to spend eternity with the god of most of these religions anyway. I will say, if I hear or read 'I'm not perfect; just forgiven' one more time, I will lose it on the transgressor. It's like a free pass to do rotten things to others and get away with it, and I just don't believe it's that easy that bypass karma, divine retribution or ironic occurence.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

I do not think Jesus was an asshole in any way, shape or form- just the people who try to speak for him and use and abuse his message.

Out of curiosity, why does Jesus get a pass that all of the other people who claim devine authority in telling other people how to behave do not?

Since the only evidence we have of Jesus's message are the people who tried to speak for him (no direct authorship exists) how do you have any idea what his message was independent of them? Maybe it is like deciding that Jeffrey Dahmer was a pretty good guy based on the writings of his mother?

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Never Grow Up

Yes, none of my family has spoken to me in several years! But they are the ones missing out on my great life!

Ugh, that is so beyond crappy! I'm curious, how do you feel about JW teachings now? Do you still believe in God and the bible? I know some leave and remain Christian, so this is just pure curiosity on my part.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

I can't believe that people would turn away from family or be so easily swayed by others that annoint themselves as holy leaders

But should they be swayed by the holy leader who appointed his successors? Shunning lapsed members of the put forth by Paul in his letter to the Corinthians. It wasn't an invention of Russell or Rutherford. From the King James Version (1 Corinthians 5:9-13):

I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one do not eat.

For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Now, you all know that I think the Bible has all the holy help of a 12-pack of Charmin' toilet paper. But complaining about modern people doing stupid stuff in the name of god is odd when most of them were instructed 2000 years ago.

[wendybeth]

Uhm, having re-read my post thoroughly, I can find no reference to 'modern' in it- simply the expression of dismay that anyone (past or present) would do this, or allow religious leaders to coerce them into it. This certainly applies to past, present and future religions, such as Catholicism, Islamicism, Mormonism, etc.

[Alex]

Ok. I assumed you weren't considering Jesus an ass, but if he is fair game for the label as well, then I rescind.